Theo's Forum

Archive => Archived Posts => Topic started by: Sutthisak Phongthanapanic on September 01, 2013, 12:10:38 PM

Title: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Sutthisak Phongthanapanic on September 01, 2013, 12:10:38 PM
Does anybody know the future of PB? I love it and waiting the major revision ofPB including better editor, OOP, and buildin graphics engine. And I love Jose' work, it should be the standard of PB. I'm believe that...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 01, 2013, 02:44:15 PM
The last revision(s) of PB gave us a much better graphics engine and OOP, etc.  The editor was improved, although I still recommend Jose's CSED for editing. 

What improvements are you wanting to see?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on September 04, 2013, 09:22:15 PM
I would like to see x64 .... :-)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Carlo Pagani on September 06, 2013, 08:17:26 AM
Theo - You are the eternal optimist. {Not a bad thing}

I have no expectations and think Patrice is probably right, so anything that may come will be a pleasant surprise.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 06, 2013, 09:31:32 AM
While DDTer are sitting on the edge of the road waiting for the Parousia, SDK coders should take their destiny in their hands and move on.

Ask yourself, does the {new} PB's programming team would be better than you in your field of expertise?

If ever there is a 64-bit version, how long would it takes to debug, and how many members of the beta team would have the required knowledge (and time) to do it.

It is impossible for PB to compete with Visual Studio, they could have a second chance moving to ANDROID, but this would be a strategic decision and i don't think there is a real pilot into the plain.

...


Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on September 06, 2013, 10:33:41 AM
But Visual Studio is not, and never has been, the competitor. There are many people that never will touch it and this is why other languages exist. Just because you have embraced C++ doesn't mean that we have to do the same. And 64 bit is not yet a high priority for most of us.

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 06, 2013, 11:01:10 AM
Quote
Just because you have embraced C++ doesn't mean that we have to do the same
Being tired of waiting, i was forced to do it by pragmatism, but not by personnal inclination, and this is the same with WinDev.

However C/C++ is the real competitor of PB when comparing size and speed.

The problem of PB is that without somebody like you, working for free to translate all the C/C++ headers, no PB's programmer would have been able to do it without first understanding a little of the C/C++ syntax.

I wonder what would happen to this community the day you decide to move on, for any reason...


Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on September 06, 2013, 11:24:03 AM
About me ... i have a very good compiler that works fine.
We have the statement from ... Jim ... that he plans to go on ... (did it happen?)
even if not. What we have is what we have.
And IF i really need x64 actually i can choose between Modula and PureBasic.
And if somebody pays me a lot i will think about getting WinDev.
Live is good!


PS: Somebody here on Facebook? Add me ... "Theo Gottwald"
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on September 06, 2013, 11:42:17 AM
> I wonder what would happen to this community the day you decide to move on, for any reason...

Nothing. I have left programming since Bob's death and apparently nobody has noticed it. Currently, I'm only updating the headers to no betray those that use them.

What I mean is that if PB is discontinued most PBers will continue using it while they can, and for those that decide to use another compiler, there are several options. It is unlikely that they will choose C++.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 06, 2013, 11:42:52 AM
Theo,

I am also an happy camper with my soap box.  :)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 06, 2013, 11:49:29 AM
José--

Quote
I have left programming ...
May be one of the best decision you ever took in your life, they are so many wonderful things to do outside of the programming cave, especially when we come close to full completion ;)

Life is too short...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on September 06, 2013, 12:03:23 PM
I have been confined at home during several years taking care of my mother. Now that both my mother and my brother are gone, it's time to enjoy life a little more.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 06, 2013, 12:37:51 PM
José

If ever you want to visit the Alpes, there is a room for you in my home.

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Edwin Knoppert on September 06, 2013, 05:18:01 PM
How can a company prove themselves being active while their "Server Maintenance" message is kept on and on and on..
Still 3 messages on Twitter...
Seems rarely something changes and that change is only a message on their board.
If there is something going on like a troublesome restart, maybe pulling the plug would be better instead of keeping up appearances.

The silence becomes a bit 'loud' at this moment :)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jim Dunn on September 06, 2013, 06:58:02 PM
... and the PowerBASIC.Com site is down ... again ... and no http://twitter.com/PowerBASIC/ tweets ...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 06, 2013, 07:07:50 PM
Quote
and the PowerBASIC.Com site is down ... again

Glad you are, to have this forum, because down it never goes ;)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Chris Holbrook on September 06, 2013, 10:42:42 PM
... it's time to enjoy life a little more.
Go for it José.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 07, 2013, 12:59:46 AM
Their telephones appear to be down too.  I keep getting a message that the circuits are busy.  Maybe a local problem and not a problem with PowerBASIC.

I was trying to call them because I am still trying to get the physical copies of PB/DOS, PB/CC and PB/Forms that I ordered and paid for almost a month ago.  I ordered the PB/DOS and PB/CC first then the PB/Win and PB/Forms a week later.  All upgrades.  Around the same time as I ordered the PB/Win and PB/Forms out of the blue they email me the PB/DOS and PB/CC.   No explanation.  That's fine.  I email them saying that since they didn't send the physical copies of PB/DOS and PB/CC out yet could they combine everything and credit me for the second shipping.  I get an email back from Jim saying they will combine and credit me the $10.  He also said everything would shipping that Friday.  Another week  and a half passes, nothing.   I write back and Jim says they will resend all the disks that day.  Kind of like the checks in the mail excuse  but I figure they will go out for sure this time.  Another week goes by and still nothing.  I send another email (not as nice) and .... silence.

Now I know PowerBASIC is not a fly by night outfit.  I bought my first copy of PB/DOS back in 1995.  My fear is things are so chaotic there that they can't manage the simple task of shipping disks or keeping the website up.

Another example of their legendary customer service?    Caveat emptor

Update:
I got an email from from them that a staff member was in an accident and that they were behind in shipping. 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: David Roberts on September 07, 2013, 02:15:37 AM
Quote
they can't manage the simple task of shipping disks
That is assuming they have disks to ship.
Quote
Maybe a local problem and not a problem with PowerBASIC.
Yeah, may be so but your story, James, is a separate issue to this third episode of the year.

Caveat emptor?

Duly noted.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Francisco Castanedo on September 07, 2013, 04:57:59 AM
Their telephones appear to be down too.  I keep getting a message that the circuits are busy.  Maybe a local problem and not a problem with PowerBASIC.

Now I know PowerBASIC is not a fly by night outfit.  I bought my first copy of PB/DOS back in 1995.  My fear is things are so chaotic there that they can't manage the simple task of shipping disks or keeping the website up.

It sure seems bad. Hope it is temporary but sure looks as if the whole thing broke down. It looked strange not to have word of updates or new releases or nothing!! Bad, bad.

I know for a fact that C is the languege to learn besides PowerBasic... when you are young and have plenty of time and neurons to master it.
Another solution for us pre-retirement folks is WinDev. Once you get the hang of it must be very easy and fast to build full blown applications, and with the fast machines out there today the speed of PowerBasic could be set aside.

For now let's wait and see.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 07, 2013, 05:11:38 AM
I know for a fact that C is the languege to learn besides PowerBasic... when you are young and have plenty of time and neurons to master it.
Another solution for us pre-retirement folks is WinDev. Once you get the hang of it must be very easy and fast to build full blown applications, and with the fast machines out there today the speed of PowerBasic could be set aside.

I am using the last of my neurons to relearn Visual Basic.  I was a big fan of Visual Basic v 1-6.  I am not a big fan of the .net versions but it's time to retire the VB6 and move on to .net.  Interestingly, Microsoft Visual Studio is language neutral, VB, C++, C# all compile into the same code.   It's slow and bloated compared to PB/Win but as a skill it is more marketable.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 07, 2013, 09:19:37 AM
Francisco--

Quote
Another solution for us pre-retirement folks is WinDev. Once you get the hang of it must be very easy and fast to build full blown applications, and with the fast machines out there today the speed of PowerBasic could be set aside.

You will be amazed to see what i have done with it (for others). And it could be mixed with DLL written in other languages, including PowerBASIC when you need to perform real time processing task.

One of my best customer is a formal PB's user who followed my advice, he becames the official importer of PC-Soft in the UK, and built a success story with it.  :)

Aside note:
Most WinDev programmers do not have any clue about low level SDK programming, thus giving a wealth of opportunity for those knowing it...


Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 07, 2013, 05:21:08 PM
I got a nice email from PowerBASIC explaining that a key staff member had been in an auto accident, fortunately not seriously injured, which caused them to be behind in their email and shipping.  I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.  As far as the website, web service providers go down, so that may not be their fault.  Hopefully, I'll receive my disks shortly.

Getting back to the topic of this discussion, PowerBASIC has to be near the end of their upgrade cycle.  People that had previously owned PowerBASIC have already upgraded and new customers are few and far between. I think that PowerBASIC needs to concentrate on the PB/Win compiler, eventually making it X64 and leave the add-ons to other people.  If I had researched better I would have forgone PB/Forms in favor of Firefly.  There are atleast three GUI add-ons that are superior to PB/Forms.  PB/CC is a niche product that is less QBASIC, QuickBASIC and PB/DOS compatible than a free alternative, QB64.  I was able to convert several old PB/DOS programs to QB64 in under an hour.   

The upgrade sale was an excellent idea as it is the reason I upgraded. I even upgraded PB/DOS 3.1 to 3.5 in case MS DOS makes a comeback  ;D .   

 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: David Roberts on September 07, 2013, 06:00:40 PM
On re-reading your 'Caveat emptor' post, James, my guess is that the story from PB was to make you feel guilty. It is one of the oldest tricks in the book.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 07, 2013, 06:57:03 PM
I'm cynical but you put me to shame. 

For now, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.  Ultimately, they hurt themselves as I am less likely to upgrade to future versions of PB.

Because of the delay in getting the PB/Win and PB/Forms, I have had to start a project in VB.net (2010).  VB.net is convoluted compared to VB6 but I have figured out a lot of what Microsoft has changed.    If I become adequate at VB.net I am less likely to upgrade to the next version of PB.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Chris Holbrook on September 07, 2013, 07:36:10 PM
I got a nice email from PowerBASIC explaining that a key staff member had been in an auto accident, fortunately not seriously injured, which caused them to be behind in their email and shipping. 
Sounds like a classic example of the "Dog Ate My Homework" genre.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 07, 2013, 09:11:14 PM
Quote
PowerBasic is facing some difficult challenges.
Euphemism
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Chris Holbrook on September 08, 2013, 12:08:19 AM
Just checked the PowerBASIC Twitterfeed, apparently they have all of 92 followers, and haven't tweeted for a month. Sad!
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Guy Dombrowski on September 08, 2013, 01:26:15 AM
Well,

As I have been maintaining a lot of obsolete QB45 programs that are still doing the job ( But not with 64 bits OS ) I am not too worried about my new PB programs.

Even if PowerBasic would shut down, my programs will still work and it is too late for me to start moving on a new platform.
Compared to what I had to work before, I have hardly begin to learn all but a small part of the new commands.

So, I will be writing PB code for a while yet.




 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: David Roberts on September 08, 2013, 04:05:10 AM
Quote
Sad!
When the site went down at the beginning of the year I was a bit annoyed at the lack of communication from PB. When it went down the second time I was fuming at their not learning anything from the first episode; classic incompetence.
 
When it went down last weekend I too went to Twitter after quite a few hours and could not believe that it hadn't been updated since 2 Aug - the three tweets were all dated 2 Aug.
 
I haven't been the slightest bit annoyed this time but, like you Chris, I just felt sad and especially since no comment at the forums.
 
"We are in the process of fixing our forum email, and we hope to have it fixed this week."
 
Jim Bailey wrote that on 29 April. It is worth noting that we used to get notifications on PMs as well as activity on subscribed threads. Some folk may call by regularly but not log in so they will not be aware that a PM awaits them. I've had a few notifications from this forum in the last few days and it makes a world of difference.
 
29 April! - that is over four months ago.
 
After the second episode we were told of a marketing guy and an IT guy were joining. Either that did not happen or they have left otherwise a third episode identical the first two would have been dealt with differently. OK, the site was not down as long as the first two episodes and I'm not sure how long it was down but it was down long enough to warrant a comment.
Quote
So, I will be writing PB code for a while yet.
So will I, Guy, and I suspect many other folk will as well.
 
On a new compiler version I usually part with my hard earned as soon as I am aware of their existence. This will not be the case in the event of new versions and I suspect that will be the case for many other folk as well. Now, that is sad!
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on September 08, 2013, 09:55:36 AM
Couldn't somebody like Charles make a "PB Clone" that we can use? :-)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Charles Pegge on September 08, 2013, 10:53:52 AM
If PB goes caput, there will still be plenty of time to decide whether to continue the PB dialect, it very much depends on user demand, and whether supporters would be willing to encode the PB functions library.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 08, 2013, 12:30:37 PM
Theo--

Don't you think it is time to leave the nimbe and come back to the terra firma (floor of cow)  :)

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 08, 2013, 03:08:18 PM
Does anyone have a good guess as to how many active PowerBasic users there are?  I am sure PowerBasic holds that number pretty close to the vest but I am looking for an educated guess.  I would think that the heyday would have been PB/DOS in the mid to late 1990's.

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on September 08, 2013, 08:29:23 PM
I guess its not enough to make something commercial that really pays out.
Thats the main Problem.
On the other side PB IS HE>RE - its stabel - and its working.
We would just need something like that in x64 ...

@Patrice. Read the posts from Jim and find out if everything happens how he told us. (New Beta Program etc.).
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 08, 2013, 08:47:49 PM
Quote
@Patrice. Read the posts from Jim and find out if everything happens how he told us. (New Beta Program etc.).
which post  ::)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on September 09, 2013, 12:53:01 PM
Quote
I find it impressive to see how many turn their back so quickly.  PowerBASIC has always met or exceeded benchmarks of 99% of the compilers out there.  As everyone has been told, 64bit will be real.  But do you really know what advantages 64bit gives you?  Microsoft even recommends that you install Office as a 32bit on 64bit machines.

I thank you Chris, your EZGui products are well written, and have helped us sell many products.  And you are right, being a senior employee, I took over operations.  I am an analyst, a programmer, and a teacher - learning marketing and trying to make the best decisions for PB have been a big challenge for me. 

Our site and phones have been down since 3:00pm Sat.  We moved into a bigger office and have hired an on-site IT specialist, a marketing genius, and some more tech support personnel.

We hope to have everything normalized in the next day or 2 (I hope today...) and when we get back to 100% we will be relaunching the beta forums for testing.

I sincerely regret the difficulties all PBers have endured.  We are continuing to make newer and better compilers. 

PB did not die Nov. 6, 2012.  It was forced to change. 

Jim Bailey
PowerBASIC Staff

Quote
Thank you Chris, for explaining the different methods of programming. As there are many that like to use EZGUI, FireFly, PBForms, etc...

I would also like to mention the fact that PowerBASIC is one of the only compilers that can use different GUI designers, different IDE - or editors, and create DLLs compatible with 99% of applications or compilers out there today.

This forum seems to have taken to "suggestions" rather than asking question as to what may become of PowerBASIC.

So please let me take a second to tell you that all suggestions that are made, in the forums, as well as email, are being cataloged and reviewed by our development department. New maintenance versions are on their way, and work is being done with regards to new major versions (with a path to 64bit).

Any questions, please direct them to jim@powerbasic.com, and I will do my best to explain the answers to you.

Thank you all for your support,
__________________
Jim Bailey
PowerBASIC Staff

Quote
Thank you, Steve, we are working on many more aspects of Bob's visions. We still have our no-vaporware policy as to upcoming compilers and add-ons/tools. However Bob left us with a lot of ideas, and work...

The first project is to get the .04 versions of our current compiler released. Hopefully this will be the last maintenance release for this version.

Then we will be able to concentrate on the new compiler with new features.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 09, 2013, 02:12:56 PM
Yes, i have read these, and the no vapor ware policy moto, is realy too handy to turn us to mute...

Do you know the name of the {new} guy in charge of R&D, because that woul be the only thing that could give us a real confidence in the future of PowerBASIC or not.

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 10, 2013, 02:48:37 AM
Quote
It is impossible for PB to compete with Visual Studio

Unless your goal is mediocrity, you should not try to compete with Visual Studio.  It does not even support ISO standard C.


Quote
I got a nice email from PowerBASIC explaining that a key staff member had been in an auto accident, fortunately not seriously injured, which caused them to be behind in their email and shipping.  I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I wonder if it was the same key employee that was in an auto accident several years ago that supposedly caused the delay in the shipment of manuals that I ordered?  This was the excuse I was given when I called to ask about the status of my order.


Quote
As far as the website, web service providers go down, so that may not be their fault.

IIRC, before Bob's death, the servers were in-house and PB Inc. merely leased a data line from Verizon.  Whether they have continued this or outsourced the servers is irrelevant at this point.  Whatever the problem is, it is getting a bit harder to make excuses.


Quote
Despite all the challenges though, this does not mean they are not up to the task. It is only reasonable to expect them to take a year or so to figure things out. This is no overnight fix that can be done. They will likely make a few mistakes along the way and find out what works and what doesn't.

We have seen an update pushed out after Bob's death.  It is not like they have been sitting on their hands staring at the monitor all day. 

There is an old saying that behind all good men, is an even better woman.  Bob's wife has been mentioned a time or two on the PB forums and I am sure she is doing what she can to keep the team going.  Jim sounded overwhelmed in a previous post here, so hopefully he is getting some stress alleviated with the new team members that were added.


Quote
To quote Bob Zale - "smaller, faster", that is what I want and need.

PB 10 lost focus of this vision, as "actual used code" compiled in PB 10 is often larger than the same code compiled in PB 9.  I moved away from PB 10 because of the bloat.  Unfortunately, the compiler I was using is now dead due to the incarceration of its author.  So, I am back to using PB for some new projects.

 
Quote
Jim Bailey wrote that on 29 April. It is worth noting that we used to get notifications on PMs as well as activity on subscribed threads. Some folk may call by regularly but not log in so they will not be aware that a PM awaits them. I've had a few notifications from this forum in the last few days and it makes a world of difference.

I have heard of people being unable to register on the forum because the confirmation email is not sent out and therefore you can't confirm your account.  If this is still true, tech support is basically closed off to new customers.


Quote
After the second episode we were told of a marketing guy and an IT guy were joining.

The IT guy needs to be fired immediately.  It does not take over a month to update servers.


Quote
So will I, Guy, and I suspect many other folk will as well.

I will too.  Thanks to the people named in my signature, I can keep going with PowerBASIC for several more years.


Quote
On a new compiler version I usually part with my hard earned as soon as I am aware of their existence. This will not be the case in the event of new versions and I suspect that will be the case for many other folk as well. Now, that is sad!

I will not spend another dime on unsupported software.  Unless PB Inc. allows me access to the tech support forums, there will be no further purchases from me.  People that do not believe in their product enough to provide support for it, will not see my money.


Quote
But do you really know what advantages 64bit gives you?

I answered this when Jim asked, but I was the only one who answered.  I may be the only one interested in 64-bit support.


Quote
Yes, i have read these, and the no vapor ware policy moto, is realy too handy to turn us to mute...

The no vaporware policy did wonders for PB DOS 4.0 and PB for Linux.  I hope the 64-bit version of PB for Windows has a better fate than PB for Linux. ;D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 10, 2013, 04:13:01 AM

I wonder if it was the same key employee that was in an auto accident several years ago that supposedly caused the delay in the shipment of manuals that I ordered?  This was the excuse I was given when I called to ask about the status of my order.

I find that troubling.  If I figure out they are outright lying I am done.  I'll use version PB/Win 10 and PB/CC 6 until Microsoft no longer supports 32 bit

Quote
I have heard of people being unable to register on the forum because the confirmation email is not sent out and therefore you can't confirm your account.  If this is still true, tech support is basically closed off to new customers.

I had this problem but a quick email to PowerBASIC resolved it.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 10, 2013, 04:22:50 AM
Quote
I find that troubling.  If I figure out they are outright lying I am done...

I lived in Florida for almost eight years and given how bad the drivers are there, it is not outside the realm of possibility. ;D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Chris Holbrook on September 10, 2013, 11:59:45 AM
The sad fact is that for years the company has done nothing whatever to inspire confidence, particularly so since Bob Zale left us.

Yet the products are just as good as they were a year or so ago. PowerBASIC Inc have scored a massive own goal by their mishandling of their situation. Their business model, believed to rely exclusively  on licence sales for revenue, can be no help.

How many commercial programmers would wish to be associated with the brand, if it could be avoided?

If you have run out of commitment or cash guys, for goodness sake put the business on eBay, don't faff about and let you user base go sour.

Even with a new product or upgrade, a considerable quantity of doubt has been poured over the whole enterprise and people will be suspicious of the brand.

Something must be done, and soon.








 


Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 11, 2013, 12:19:11 AM
Even with a new product or upgrade, a considerable quantity of doubt has been poured over the whole enterprise and people will be suspicious of the brand.

Something must be done, and soon.

Anything done at this point will be too little, too late.  They can't undo the damage that has been done or regain developers who have ditched the product.  They can only move on and hope to keep those of us that remain happy and try and attract future customers.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on September 11, 2013, 07:36:27 AM
If there are people from florida overthere ... can't you just sit in the car, drive there and late rgive us a report on the new "Marketing" and "IT Guy's"?

Anyway, PB is here and it works fine. The produced code is very small and efficient.
The only problem is that MS plans to switch off x32 rather sooner then later.

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 11, 2013, 08:12:30 PM
If there are people from florida overthere ... can't you just sit in the car, drive there and late rgive us a report on the new "Marketing" and "IT Guy's"?

Marketing?  The axiom is that it costs 5X more to obtain a new customer than to retain an existing customer.  The first step in their marketing strategy should be to stop losing existing customers.  I don't believe they have figured that out.  From what I can see they don't have a maketing strategy. 

I still haven't gotten either my disks, the files or any info as to when I can be expect them.  I am back to suggesting "caveat emptor" on any purchases directly from PowerBASIC.  The taste in my mouth just gets worse and worse.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 11, 2013, 09:19:18 PM
The count down started on november 6, 2012.

I have a deep thought for Christopher, Paul, Dominic, because they are all in the same boat.

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on September 11, 2013, 09:39:24 PM
Quote
Our website was only supposed to be down for no more than 2 hours last Saturday.

Major issues with our new ISP ensued, and they did not have us on priority, especially through the weekend.

It took me to go to their main HQ - big trip - to get actions finished.

Our phones are up, website normalized, and with that the last action is to get our mail server (for the forums, feedback, etc...) completed.

I do regretfully apologize for any inconvenience, and will next time have the foresight to post at least a week in advance for any changes or service to be made.

There has been a lot of discussion on other fora regarding PB. We have moved into a larger area, and have acquired more personnel for DOC building, tech support, and marketing.

Rest assured that PB is not going away, BETA forums will be restarted for a few new projects that are top secret .

If there are any other questions, please email me at jim@powerbasic.com

There is no planned scheduling of server maintenance that may leave the site down for more than 5 minutes in the future.

Thank all of you for your loyalty in PB and with our direction I am sure all of you will be pleased and surprised with future products. As always, our no-vaporware policies deem that I can not give you a date, I can only tell you that we are going to be beginning beta testing on our new products in the next month / month and a half.

Is he an good actor - like Obama?
 ;D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Frederick J. Harris on September 11, 2013, 10:00:25 PM
Quote
The only problem is that MS plans to switch off x32 rather sooner then later.

What do you mean by that Theo, if you don't mind my asking?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James C. Fuller on September 11, 2013, 10:08:51 PM
Quote
The only problem is that MS plans to switch off x32 rather sooner then later.

What do you mean by that Theo, if you don't mind my asking?

I too was puzzled by that comment. Any links to back that up Theo? I see x32 for at least 10 if not 20 years down the road.

James
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: George Bleck on September 11, 2013, 10:33:42 PM
I'd like to see some documentation stemming from Microsoft to support that theory.

On the contrary, I expect to see 32bit around for at least a decade.  There are too many existing 32bit applications written for Microsoft to stop supporting it quickly. 

Simply extending it to their own products like Office.  YES there is a 64bit office, but you cannot leverage automation tools, plugin-ins, and interfaces that are 32bit with a 64bit Office suite.  I cannot fathom any large scale company that will be able to deploy 64bit Office and leave all their tools behind that intergrate with it.  For this reason alone I can see 32bit support in the OS surviving quite a long time. 

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Chris Holbrook on September 11, 2013, 10:46:41 PM
Windows 7 support is supposed to continue until 2025.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 11, 2013, 10:54:33 PM
I still haven't gotten either my disks, the files or any info as to when I can be expect them.


File a complaint with the consumer protection division of the Florida Attorney General:

http://myfloridalegal.com/Contact.nsf/Contact?OpenForm&Section=Consumer_Protection_Division


Since it involves something being mailed to you, file a complaint with the US Postal Service:

http://ehome.uspis.gov/fcsexternal/default.aspx


Since your order was placed online, and out of state, file a complaint with the FTC:

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/GettingStarted?NextQID=203&Url=%23%26panel1-6


There is not a legitimate excuse for not receiving your purchases by now.  Do let us know when you receive your products or receive a refund.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 12, 2013, 01:17:13 AM
There is no excuse for taking this long.  I have taken action with the payment service I used.  I now believe that is the only reason I got the email about the accident, whether true or false.  They can resolve it very easily by sending the disks.

Ill try calling them tomorrow.  Last time I tried calling the line was busy.  Odd for a business.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: David Roberts on September 12, 2013, 06:15:54 AM
The email about the accident was received less than five hours after mentioning here the delay in dispatching. This thread is being read by PB.
 
After reading Brice's post another email will be winging its way to you James. This one will be from Jim Bailey saying how disappointed he is that they still have not been sent and he has taken the matter into his own hands and is putting the disks into an envelope as he types.
 
Another four or fives days will pass and no disks.
 
Quote
I'm cynical but you put me to shame.

Not cynicism, I have seen it all before.

Although we are getting toward the end of the hurricane season, a small one did occur but not big enough to get a mention in the nationals. It was big enough, however, to blow down the premises were PB's disks are manufactured.

You read it here first.  :)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 12, 2013, 07:30:06 AM
I have taken action with the payment service I used.

That will get your money back, but the legal channels should still be pursued, even if it is just reports filed as it may help keep them from doing this to somebody else.  If it does happen to somebody else, at least there will be a record of their abuse and it will increase the likelihood of action being taken.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on September 12, 2013, 11:09:18 AM
What i can say is that in the past it was alwys the server technology that came later down to the workstations.

WinNT -> Win2K
64 bit ...

And now we see that in the new Server OS the 32 is getting obsolete already.

32 bit optional in Windows Servers (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/heaths/archive/2009/11/06/wow64-is-optional-in-windows-server-2008-r2-server-core.aspx)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 12, 2013, 02:08:28 PM
That will get your money back, but the legal channels should still be pursued, even if it is just reports filed as it may help keep them from doing this to somebody else.  If it does happen to somebody else, at least there will be a record of their abuse and it will increase the likelihood of action being taken.

If I thought their actions were criminal in intention I would pursue the actions you suggested.   I believe that it is a breakdown in the function of the company.  Whether the accident story is true or not, if there were going to be a delay in shipping I should have been told that immediately, not 30 days later, and offered a chance to cancel the order.  Giving me two different ship dates when you know that it was not possible to meet those dates is my biggest issue.  My hope is I will get the software.  A refund would be an acceptable alternative. 

You would think that they read this forum but the lack of response when their own website was down would suggest otherwise.

If PowerBASIC as a company is so broken that they can't perform the basic function of shipping disks out than there will not be a PB/Win x64, maybe not even a PB/Win 11.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 12, 2013, 03:30:05 PM
Stop dreaming all of you!

Who do you think in the company, would be really able to write a 64-bit version, or even a PB11 32-bit, now that Bob Zale is dead. And how would they do to pay this miraculous employee.

The only viable solution would be to turn PB into a pre-processor and use a C compiler to create the real EXE under the hood.

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 12, 2013, 04:51:17 PM
Quote
If I thought their actions were criminal in intention I would pursue the actions you suggested.

Criminal in intention, or not, the end result is the same.  It is generally considered illegal to collect money for something and never actually deliver the product paid for.


Quote
Whether the accident story is true or not, if there were going to be a delay in shipping I should have been told that immediately, not 30 days later, and offered a chance to cancel the order.  Giving me two different ship dates when you know that it was not possible to meet those dates is my biggest issue.

Mentioning dates brings to mind something else when I ordered the manuals several years ago.  I was told by email they had shipped on a date that was about a week prior.  When I did finally receive the manuals, the Pitney Bowes postage meter that PB Inc. had in their office had stamped the postage with the date of the email, so it had not been sent out a week prior as they claimed.

Bob never would explain that when I called him on it.


Quote
If PowerBASIC as a company is so broken that they can't perform the basic function of shipping disks out than there will not be a PB/Win x64, maybe not even a PB/Win 11.

The new man in charge is supposedly a teacher, but can't figure out how to address an envelope, stick your discs in it and mail it?  When such a task is too challenging, it is hard to hold out hope for anything else out of PB Inc.


Quote
Who do you think in the company, would be really able to write a 64-bit version, or even a PB11 32-bit, now that Bob Zale is dead. And how would they do to pay this miraculous employee.


It would depend on how much work was done on the 64-bit version before Bob died.  Hopefully more work was being done on it than on the Linux version or PB DOS 4.0. 


Quote
The only viable solution would be to turn PB into a pre-processor and use a C compiler to create the real EXE under the hood.

Any compiler not doing this is using a dated methodology for compiling.  A compiler needs to be portable, whether for platforms other than Windows or architecture other than x86.  A windows-only 32-bit compiler is a very hard-sell nowadays.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James C. Fuller on September 12, 2013, 05:59:23 PM
One direction PowerBASIC could take is to use jwasm as the assembler.
I would think it would be easier to port tasm to jwasm than to "c".
There are versions of jwasm for 32/64 Windows,32/64 Linux, and DOS.

James
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 12, 2013, 06:15:06 PM
Mentioning dates brings to mind something else when I ordered the manuals several years ago.  I was told by email they had shipped on a date that was about a week prior.  When I did finally receive the manuals, the Pitney Bowes postage meter that PB Inc. had in their office had stamped the postage with the date of the email, so it had not been sent out a week prior as they claimed.

Bob never would explain that when I called him on it.

Maybe lying is part of their standard operating procedure.  I've dealt with companies like that, I just never thought PowerBASIC was one of them.

Quote
It would depend on how much work was done on the 64-bit version before Bob died.  Hopefully more work was being done on it than on the Linux version or PB DOS 4.0.

My guess is not much.  Now as far as PB/DOS 4.0, I would have liked to see that.  Built in support for SVGA?  Sound Blaster/Adlib Support?   
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 12, 2013, 10:06:43 PM
My guess is not much.  Now as far as PB/DOS 4.0, I would have liked to see that.  Built in support for SVGA?  Sound Blaster/Adlib Support?

A lot of people were looking forward to PB DOS 4.0
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: David Roberts on September 13, 2013, 02:16:45 AM
I am starting to nod off but it has just gone 8pm in Florida. If PB were reading this thread I would have put money on James receiving an email by now. They were certainly coming here at the beginning of the year when the PB site was done for a week or so. Perhaps when their site is up they don't bother to call by even though at the top right of this page we have "Your resource for programming with PowerBASIC".

If I was in PB's admin I would definitely come here every now and then.

They haven't got a clue have they?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Chris Holbrook on September 13, 2013, 02:26:02 AM
They haven't got a clue have they?
Nor have we, no idea what is going on inside, conflict, pressures, etc. The effect is dreadful, but we don't know the cause.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: David Roberts on September 13, 2013, 02:41:15 AM
We used to hang people for the dreadful effect their behaviour had and, more often than not, we had no idea what was the cause of their behaviour. Quite a few people here in the UK this year have been given life sentences without knowing what the cause of their behaviour was.

Call me old fashioned but if I was James and my disks did not turn up in the next 10 days I would organise a lynch mob.  ;D

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 13, 2013, 03:09:02 AM
Call me old fashioned but if I was James and my disks did not turn up in the next 10 days I would organise a lynch mob.  ;D

Tar and feathers?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 13, 2013, 04:08:49 AM
Nothing that dramatic but in under two weeks I will have to escalate the case with the payment service and will push for a refund for the PB/Win and PB/Forms.   I will then consider myself another former PB customer.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 13, 2013, 05:04:08 AM
Nothing that dramatic but in under two weeks I will have to escalate the case with the payment service and will push for a refund for the PB/Win and PB/Forms.   I will then consider myself another former PB customer.

Hopefully they will decide to exercise some honesty and integrity.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Chris Holbrook on September 13, 2013, 09:35:38 PM
Call me old fashioned but if I was James and my disks did not turn up in the next 10 days I would organise a lynch mob.
Dai bach, sometimes grumpiness can spill over into incitement to riot. I would not support that transition, and do not consider that we PBers should encourage social unrest in the USA.

What most of us are suffering at the hands of PowerBASIC is disappointment, not fraud. The problem appears to be that Bob Zale was pretty much a one-man band and he did not make arrangements for a successor. Quite a lot of people thought that they were buying a better future with their PB licences, and since last November, they were wrong. Did BZ ever say that the company would survive him?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: David Roberts on September 13, 2013, 10:15:18 PM
Quote
and do not consider that we PBers should encourage social unrest in the USA.
You are absolutely right, Chris.

Were should we encourage it then?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Chris Holbrook on September 13, 2013, 10:55:29 PM
Quote
and do not consider that we PBers should encourage social unrest in the USA.
Were should we encourage it then?
No, no, no.

OTOH I could use a new refrigerator...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 13, 2013, 11:29:13 PM
What is sad is with PB Inc. having the issues they are, this has already caused many folks to leave the compilers.  Financially this affects those who target PB-only with third-party addons/products.  I have encouraged one such developer over the years to target other languages with his products.  It would be sad to see PB tool developers go under due to the struggles PB Inc. is having.  I do hope PB Inc. gets themselves together for the sake of the community and those who share the customer base with PB Inc.  There are some really wonderful people in the community, which has always been the strongest asset of PB.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Dennis Wallentin on September 16, 2013, 02:45:32 AM
Hi all,


My background is probably very different then most people here. I have spent more > 25 years in Microsoft's Eco system.

I've been lurking around this forum as well as PB forum and Chris's EZGUI forum for some time now. I'm the customer that PB don't want to have; a newbie to the PB compiler and using it for my pleasure and occasionally doing some minor jobs for non-profitable organizations.

Let's face the situation, there is a core of a few strongly devoted PB developers who keep both PB Inc and the compiler alive. Without these guys PB probably would have been dropped and gone long time ago.

The compiler is really good but that does not justify a poor and arrogant custom service, no user-friendly documentation, especially for newbies and so on.


For me it appears that PB Inc still think a good technical product like the compiler sells by itself. Those days are gone and to be competitive today requires a different mindset then for 20 - 25 years ago.



Funny, but it seems that the x64 is less attractive outside the server halls and powerful workstation computers. Giving the rapid development of personal devices other platforms like iOS, Android etc are more attractive.

I expect to see the x86 desktop to be alive and doing well. The major change is that it's no longer is the 'one and only' platform.


The strong devoted group of PB developers will still find their income based PB but for other developers PB is not the #1 option.

I still haven't find any documents that outline the future of the compiler.


In case anyone feels offended by my post I apologize for it.

Thanks for reading my post.




Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 16, 2013, 03:56:52 AM
I'm the customer that PB don't want to have; a newbie to the PB compiler and using it for my pleasure and occasionally doing some minor jobs for non-profitable organizations.

As long as you are a paying customer you are the kind of customer that PowerBASIC wants.  PowerBASIC, especially during the PB/DOS days, was always both a professional and hobbyist programming language.   PB/CC is more hobbyist friendly but both PB/Win and PB/CC have their professional and hobbyist users. In the Microsoft world, Visual BASIC is both a professional and hobbyist language.

Quote
The compiler is really good but that does not justify a poor and arrogant custom service, no user-friendly documentation, especially for newbies and so on.

Their customer service is terrible.  The documentation is OK if you come to it with a good BASIC background. 

Quote
For me it appears that PB Inc still think a good technical product like the compiler sells by itself. Those days are gone and to be competitive today requires a different mindset then for 20 - 25 years ago.

This is something that PowerBASIC doesn't understand nor do I think they ever will.  When Bob Zale died there was a three week period of silence.  I understand this since his death is a private family matter but when they decided they wanted to keep the company going they should have been more open with the existing customers.  When Bob died, if they had decided to pull the plug on PowerBASIC that would have been understandable but this vague limbo leaves current users without direction and I am sure discourages anyone from becoming a new customer. 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 16, 2013, 05:05:38 AM
I do not have access to the PB forums, but I am curious if somebody clicked on Jim Bailey's name and looked at his stats, what would be the last date he accessed the forums?  Is he ignoring these, too?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 16, 2013, 09:48:01 AM
Jim Bailey
Last Activity: Aug 26th, 2013 06:54 PM

 :)

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Carlo Pagani on September 16, 2013, 11:54:49 AM
Maybe it was Jim in the accident?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jim Dunn on September 16, 2013, 01:33:42 PM
Jim Bailey's twitter feed hasn't been updated since March 2013:

https://twitter.com/tunedin76
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Dennis Wallentin on September 16, 2013, 01:57:31 PM
James,

For me the documentation is not user-friendly and it's not subject to the level of knowledge in Basic.

Just because I buy a product does not necessarily mean I'm the right customer for the company. It's the attitude. I wished I have bookmarked two threads at the PB forum that point to the issue.

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 16, 2013, 04:16:47 PM
For me the documentation is not user-friendly and it's not subject to the level of knowledge in Basic.

You are right, it's not user friendly.   Definitely not suitable for a beginner.  It's OK for someone with a good knowledge of BASIC but even then it is not an efficient source of information.  So we really don't disagree on this issue.  I have seen worse.

Quote
Just because I buy a product does not necessarily mean I'm the right customer for the company. It's the attitude. I wished I have bookmarked two threads at the PB forum that point to the issue.

If PB has belittled any of it's customer base it would be really stupid on their part.  They make their money on the sale of the compiler regardless of how it's used.   FYI, I fall into the hobbyist category who sold several PB/DOS programs in the long past.  I also sold some VB3 and VB6 programs in that same time frame.   
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 16, 2013, 04:41:56 PM
Maybe it was Jim in the accident?

It is possible as the last email I received that was signed by Jim was on 08/26/13 in which he said he was sending out the disks that day.  I hope he wasn't in an accident bringing my disks to the post office.  The guilt, the guilt.

Further evidence would be the email that I received on 09/06/13 was signed PowerBASIC Management Team.   Maybe it was from Vivian.   It really doesn't explain why the software I ordered on 08/06/13 and 08/12/13 was not shipped as of 08/26/13.  I really do want to give them the benefit of the doubt but anecdotal evidence from this forum makes it very hard.

Whether it was Jim or not, I hope whoever it was recovers quickly. 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Marc Giao on September 16, 2013, 04:42:15 PM
Hi All,

Does anyone here have a direct e-mail to Vivian Zale? Please PM me if you do, thanks.

Marc
=========
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 16, 2013, 06:25:35 PM
Maybe it was Jim in the accident?

It is possible as the last email I received that was signed by Jim was on 08/26/13 in which he said he was sending out the disks that day.  I hope he wasn't in an accident bringing my disks to the post office.  The guilt, the guilt.

Further evidence would be the email that I received on 09/06/13 was signed PowerBASIC Management Team.   Maybe it was from Vivian.   It really doesn't explain why the software I ordered on 08/06/13 and 08/12/13 was not shipped as of 08/26/13.  I really do want to give them the benefit of the doubt but anecdotal evidence from this forum makes it very hard.

Whether it was Jim or not, I hope whoever it was recovers quickly.


Unless PB Inc. is now a one person operation, there should have been somebody else to mail out your software.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 16, 2013, 07:31:37 PM
If you do not need anything new, nor a 64-bit version, then you can stay with PB10 for some more years until you get retired.

ELSE

move on...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on September 16, 2013, 08:34:18 PM
Ok, here is my personal opinion.
I have to say that its not really based on best of my knowledge but this is all i can say at this time.

My opinion is - and i have said this often enough before, also in the PB Forum -
that anybody with a bit of math knowledge can make a rough calculation,
how much money can really be earned with a product like PB with the actual prices in a niche market like it is.

You see Jose's Forum, you can see the download numbers of excellent free software from Jose.
Take you calculator and make a rough approximation how much is in there if anybody of these customers has bought a compiler.

Now ask your self ... all 4 to 6 years a new compiler ... can you pay all that time a staff of support and programmers and taxes etc. with the money you have calculated?

Going from there we have a reason to assume that PB was never a company with high profits, I'd even say it must have been at the border. And if i look at my calculation it could even have been down the border.

For the rest just think abit how the situation from Bob was and possibly for his wife now is.
For me its just adding 1+1.

What i am asking myself is, what Jim is doing about it. Its never good to make promises and not hold them.

I am not sure its a good idea to keep the community in the dark on what is really happening. Possibly the community would have helped in finding sollutions.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Chris Holbrook on September 16, 2013, 09:07:47 PM
Possibly the community would have helped in finding sollutions.
Openness was never their strong suit. It would be a shame if the company just disappeared, but for prudent consumers of the product, the writing is on the wall - Find An Alternative.

While I sympathise with people who would be hit hard by the demise of PowerBASIC, which seems at least a possibility, the company was always a one-man band and as time went on there was no hint that they were planning for a succession. Here's the clue:
Bob Zale, CHAIRMAN, PRESIDENT, TREASURER, SECRETARY.

If the users could get involved, great. But I'm just hoping that someone of substance has been negotiating with PowerVivian and that the products will be rebadged and continue, not because I am dependent on them, but because they are great compilers and it would be a shame to see them removed from the market, or worse, in the hands of an incompetent developer.

 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 16, 2013, 09:37:46 PM
You are at the tip of the very tip.

Or if you prefer, at the end of the very end...



Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Chris Holbrook on September 16, 2013, 10:38:57 PM
Maybe the best plan is for people who don't see their future as being primarily with PowerBASIC to avoid contributing so as not to spoil the atmosphere for those who cannot afford to be critical.

Let me lead the way by asking a moderator to be so kind as to unsubscribe me.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 16, 2013, 11:02:26 PM
Chris Holbrook--

Christopher Boss, has invested so much on PB with his EZGUI, that the disappearance of PB as a company would ruin all his marketing strategy, and if i was in the same situation i should be also very upset.

That should teach to third party addon developpers a good lesson: never put all your eggs into the same basket.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 16, 2013, 11:31:51 PM
The people at PowerBasic are not perfect and they face tremendous challenges right now, but much of what is being said here is more slanderous that useful. If someone has a problem with an order, take up with PB and leave it at that. If they are slow to fullfill, then one has the right to stop using their products or even cancel an order if necessary. But what is being said here in this thread is going too far and IMO this forum is losing credibility.

First off, I have been nothing but patient with PowerBASIC.  I have sent them four different emails,  two of which were answered with ship date promises that were not kept and a third that was only answered after submitted a complaint to the payment company and a fourth that remains unanswered.  I offered to cancel the order and get a refund.  No reply.   

As far as the tone of this forum, PowerBASIC should be concerned.  These are their paying customers who may or may not opt for the next version. 



Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 16, 2013, 11:48:05 PM
Quote
the company was always a one-man band
As an Inc., you have to have at least three people on the board in order to Incorporate.

Quote
If someone has a problem with an order, take up with PB and leave it at that.
That only works when a company believes in communicating with a customer.

Quote
If they are slow to fullfill, then one has the right to stop using their products or even cancel an order if necessary.
One can't stop using a product that has been paid for and never delivered.  You have never had a chance to use the product to stop using it.

Quote
But what is being said here in this thread is going too far
What is going too far are those who are excusing the behavior of PB Inc.  Issues like this were to be expected right after Bob died.  It has been 10 months now, there is ZERO excuse at this point.  People who pay for something deserve to receive it.  Perhaps you find it ethical to collect money for an order and never deliver it, but any rational person will find it unethical.  I have always thought you were an honorable and honest businessman who exemplifies integrity and goes the extra mile for his customers, so I am hoping you are not endorsing collecting money and a month later still never shipping the order out.  Think carefully about how you answer as any answer you give will be a reflection of you and your ideals as a businessman and could reflect on your future sales if you are perceived as thinking it is okay to collect money and not ship a product.

I have been willing to give PB Inc. the benefit of the doubt and remain positive about the changes and the chance for a decent future for the product, but it is inexcusable orders are going over a month and not being filled.  This scenario screams deja vu to many people here as they saw the exact same scenario play out when Tom Hanlin took over Pyxia.  People here are worried because of their investment in compilers which may no longer be supported or updated.  People depend on PB for their livelihood.  Heck, if orders aren't being filled in over a month, then the compilers are not even being sold right now, because in order for a sale to be complete, the product has to actually be delivered.  I can understand the concern people have as if I was in their shoes, I would feel the same way.

Personally, nothing would make me happier to see PB Inc. get themselves together.  I still hope they can turn things around, business-wise, but it is VERY clear there needs to be some major changes, as the company simply can't continue the way it is being run now with orders not being filled.

Quote
I have been using PowerBasic for over ten years and have been very satisfied.
Would you still be satisfied if you were not getting the products you paid for?  I have been using PB for 26 years if you go back to Turbo Basic which served me well until PB 2.1 (DOS) was released.  Six months ago, PB Inc. turned into something that is an embarrassment to the history and legacy of the products.  They were doing very well after Bob died, but then something happened six months ago, and PB Inc. has continued to go downhill since.

Quote
Jim Bailey at PB is likely working very hard to get things back on track, despite the challenges faced.
If it is such an insurmountable challenge for him to mail an order out to James, then he needs to do the honorable thing and resign.  Let Vivian find somebody who is qualified to run the business and keep the products going.  You can't convince me that nobody on staff at PB can't figure out how to fill out an envelope and stick some discs in it (heck, at this point, they should throw in one of everything they sell to make it up to James) throw some stamps on it and hand it to the mailman.  You learn how to do this in third grade.  It is not rocket science.

Quote
I don't need x64 yet, but aside from that I have plenty to work with for years right now.
I will keep using PB until it quits working on future versions of Windows.  I will also keep using EZGUI and EZSprite.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James Klutho on September 17, 2013, 12:33:26 AM
To stay alive Powerbasic needs to be able to develop meaningful updates that people will pay money to obtain.  Based on the previous forum update hits on previous versions (the path to the updates), I could easily convince myself that Bob sold at least 5000 of these every 2 to 3 year which at $100/pop is $500,000.  This was the lifeblood of the business model in my mind.  I can also imagine that the new licenses are nominal and that they probably can't cover the costs of Jim Bailey, maybe some office help,rent etc. and hopefully some programming contractors who will figure out the asm code base and inject briliant new features at nominal cost.  In other words, I am sure PB is bleeding money right now.  So goes the way of the indie developer project.

Big iron software projects have a team in place and if a team member goes away a replacement can be found and life goes on.  I can not imagine a situation where you pay a contractor to figure out the PB code, make brilliant updates and let the person walk (which will happen without the person having a big piece of the action).  Bottom line is that the only business model that works is to sell the company to a brilliant developer with the labor of love to keep the child breathing.  Long shot.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 17, 2013, 01:00:30 AM
Quote
Bob Zale may be gone, but his software still lives on and who knows who may it benefit.

a software that doesn't evolve anymore is a software that is dead.

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Dennis Wallentin on September 17, 2013, 02:55:49 AM
Reading Mr Boss first message two times makes me realize that I made a huge mistake to buy licenses of PB and EZGUI in the first place. I also realize it was a huge mistake to make comments into this thread.


The first rule of business is: feeling have no place at all. The moment feelings get involved the business arrangement no longer exist


A customer pay for a service or product. In return the customer expect to get the item. Not only that, a customer expect to be treated as a customer.


I'm a customer to PB and as such I'm both abused and lectured by Mr Boss. At the same time I'm a customer to EZGUI. As a valued customer to EZGUI I will get red carpet treatment by Mr Boss even when the PB compiler is dead and gone.

Is it only me who have the difficulties to see the logic behind this situation? No need to answer as I'm being only ironically here.


The first rule of public Q&A forum: Never write when You're upset. It will come back to You and bite You.


If there is any member here who wants one or more free licenses of PB/EZGUI and other tools I have bought send me an e-mail and I will be delighted to give away the licenses to You.


Maximum two licenses per recipient, only the first e-mail (my local time) will get the license(s).

I can be reached by e-mail, consultx@excelkbx.comx (please remove the x before sending me the e-mail):

Softwares (one license / software):
PB 9.0
PB 10.0
PBForm 2.0

Phoenix Visual Designer (license still active)
FireFly Visual Designer (ditto)
EZGUI 4.0

EZGUI 5.0
EGrid Pro (ditto)
EZGrid Form

My Little Grid (ditto)

Finally, I sincerely apologize for being such a poor customer to both PB/EZGUI.

All the best,
Dennis
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Christopher Boss on September 17, 2013, 04:07:12 AM
Dennis,

I apologize if anything I said offended you.

As far as transfers of the license of EZGUI, read the license carefully. You have to get written permission from me to do so (and for me to do this I will expect the name and email address of who ever gets the license), otherwise they will not recieve support from me.

Also because you upgraded from 4.0 to 5.0, they are combined as one product license total. You must tranfer both 4.0 and 5.0 to the same person, not separately. Any company who allows upgrades always treats the original product and the upgrade as one user license, not two.

Jose,

You can remove my user name from the members list.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on September 17, 2013, 07:36:52 AM
Quote
As an Inc., you have to have at least three people on the board in order to Incorporate.

Not in germany. Once you are one person you have to pay taxes like if you are a large company. The money is then immediately shipped to the large investors in USA.

Quote
You can remove my user name from the members list.

Why should we do that, Chris?
I do not remember that you have offended someone.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 17, 2013, 08:20:18 AM
Quote
A customer pay for a service or product. In return the customer expect to get the item. Not only that, a customer expect to be treated as a customer.
This should be the motto of any legitimate business.

Quote
I'm a customer to PB and as such I'm both abused and lectured by Mr Boss. At the same time I'm a customer to EZGUI. As a valued customer to EZGUI I will get red carpet treatment by Mr Boss even when the PB compiler is dead and gone.   Is it only me who have the difficulties to see the logic behind this situation? No need to answer as I'm being only ironically here.
No, it is not just you, but you need to remember some people are struggling with the fact that their golden idol has fallen into a puddle of wet clay.  Chris is a good guy. 

Quote
As far as transfers of the license of EZGUI, read the license carefully. You have to get written permission from me to do so (and for me to do this I will expect the name and email address of who ever gets the license), otherwise they will not recieve support from me.
Your license would be illegal in many countries.  Even here in the USA under copyright law a user has the right to transfer the license of a product with no notification given to the company.  Major companies have been unable to enforce the no license transfer clause when it was taken to the supreme court.  That said, Chris makes the license transfer process painless and I am speaking from experience from having transferred the license to EZGUI (which I later bought again).

Quote
Not in germany. Once you are one person you have to pay taxes like if you are a large company.
They tax the heck out of one man businesses here, too.  One thing universal is taxes.  >:(
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Dennis Wallentin on September 17, 2013, 12:42:38 PM
Mr Boss,

My advice to You is to avoid creating a legal dispute where international law control it. As Your friends and colleagues point out both friendly and in a hash way; the PB ship is sinking and You will follow it to the bottom of the sea unless You safe Yourself.

I have already asked the person who will get the license for EZGUI 4.0/5.0 to provide me with his address etc. My intention is to provide You with an Agreement of Transfer EZGUI License document in order to set the record straight.


The same procedure will be done for the other licenses and other vendors as well.

But if You still insist that I must have Your written permission etc then You must open a legal dispute against me. If that's the case then I ask You to provide me with the name of Your Business Lawyer as well as name of the International Lawyer that will represent You. You can send it to my e-mail address.

Again, please make the transition smooth and set Your focus on more important business tasks then a simple license issue.


When a ship sinks the first to leave it is the rats. So before You jump out from this forum take a break and let us the rats abandon the ship first.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Dennis Wallentin on September 17, 2013, 01:21:52 PM
Dear Dr Gotwald,

Who are You? My apologize for being straightforward with You.

I have never had the pleasure to be introduced to You. I made a search on Your name and the result was really poor. I must admit that I was quite surprised with the outcome.

What is Your research area and what have You been focused on in Your expertise?

Thanks in advance,
Dennis
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Frederick J. Harris on September 17, 2013, 02:04:35 PM
To Chris Boss...

Please reconsider abandoning Jose's Forum Chris.  I for one always appreciate your posts.

Fred
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Christopher Boss on September 17, 2013, 02:53:18 PM
The written permission to transfer my software is not meant to prevent the transfer, but it forces the customer to make sure they contact me that the transfer has been made and so I can know who it is being transferred to. Unless that is done, the new user won't get any tech support (I spend a lot of time with valid customers). Also if I do not have a way to verify who the original customer was it would not be possible to verify the new user so they can get upgrade offers. This rule in the license is for the benefit of the new user, not for the detriment of the previous owner of the software. It also protects me from piracy, since a user could simply make copies and pass them on to others, while keeping the software for themselves. If that happens, if a proper transfer has not occurred, the pirates don't get any tech support, since there will be no record of a proper transfer.

In essence, I don't want to be contacted by someone saying "I just bought your sofware from so and so" , expecting tech support, when the original user never contacted me first to tell me this is being done. How can I verify that it was a legit transfer ? How do I know whether it wasn't piracy ? I am strict about this policy.

And if some don't think piracy is an issue, just do a goodle search for Paul Squires FireFly and see how many torrents show up in the search. It is my hope I can avoid this if possible and the strict transfer policy I have does help in this. No legit customer of mine has to worry about making a proper transfer since I don't prevent the transfer, just want it done right. That surely is not illegal and it benefits the new user (who would be very unhappy with the one they got the software from if they ended up not getting any tech support because the original user failed to send me a simple email telling me the transfer was made and to who). I have no reason to say NO to such a proper transfer.

As Brice stated, I won't make the transfer a problem for you but I am most concerned about the new user so they can get the full benefits of the software.

Secondly, software is sold by a license, not by a transfer of rights (meaning we don't own the software we buy, we are only getting it by means of a form of rental agreement so to speak).

As far as my membership in this forum, it is not in my best interests to remain a member anymore.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Dennis Wallentin on September 17, 2013, 08:11:01 PM
Primo: I have made a post at PowerBasic forum pointing to this thread.

Secundo: The truth is that all I want is to be generous to people who think they can use the licenses I have in a good way. In that way You and other PB's vendors don't lose a customer. Instead You get customers who believe in the products and therefore will be great customers to You and the other vendors as well.

Mr Boss, I don't have any interest in license, Your business and issues with whatever.

Being a guru as a code writer is one thing, being a guru as a business man is a totally other thing. Unfortunately, it's not possible to fulfill these two roles in one person. You certainly belong to the first group.

Tertio: I will make a write up about my experiences with the PB eco system in a blog article. It will be published at my blog which has more readers per day then it exist customer to PB Inc and EZGUI. That will close my adventure with PB and its eco system.

Happy coding!
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 17, 2013, 08:34:24 PM
Quote
Tertio: I will make a write up about my experiences with the PB eco system in a blog article. It will be published at my blog which has more readers per day then it exist customer to PB Inc and EZGUI. That will close my adventure with PB and its eco system.

That will be interesting to read. ;c)

To be very clear, my ONLY issue with PB Inc. is people not getting the products they paid for.  Any previous issues I had were Bob related and simply no longer exist.  I do hope PB Inc. does the right thing.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jim Dunn on September 18, 2013, 02:44:43 AM
... previous issues I had were Bob related and simply no longer exist ...

You'll be surprised to find they have a "list"... so... you still exist...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 18, 2013, 07:39:12 AM
Christopher--

Quote
David, sadly there are a number of members on Jose's forum which repeatedly speak negatively about PowerBasic. I don't mind some going the route of C+ and discussing that, but I find it very distracting to regularly hear things like PowerBasic is going to fail and is going out of business. While I prefer to give the PB team the benefit of the doubt, I get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again about the end of PowerBasic and how I must be foolish to continue using it.

We don't speak negatively of the language by itself, because indeed we all love it there (i have been in the beta team long before you), but what we speak about: is the answer to the question matching the title of this thread "The future of PowerBASIC".

Today it is clear that there is not anymore a pilot in the plain, to convince yourself try to send a personnal message to Jim BAILEY and see if you get an answer from Sarasota.

Those of us who are not the hostage of DDT or EZGUI, are moving on, not because we don't like the language itself, but because it won't evolve anymore, and this is the reason why (for me) there is no future for PowerASIC.
But this doesn't mean it won't serve SDK programmers like you and me well, as far as 32-bit is going.

Added:
I have always considered my programming languages like tools, nothing more, nothing less, no affect there, just some of them fit better to my hand :)



Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 18, 2013, 08:35:33 AM
You'll be surprised to find they have a "list"... so... you still exist...
Such a counter-productive customer service model, be hostile to your customers and consider them the enemy.  That they have a list speaks to them not the people on the list. *shrugs*


Quote
I have always considered my programming languages like tools, nothing more, nothing less, no affect there, just some of them fit better to my hand.
I agree and not every job requires the same tool.  I will continue using PB for some things as it still works fine.  It has never been my only tool and never will be.  The right tool for the right job.  The lack of portability makes PB really limited for me.  If you need to target Windows and especially legacy versions of Windows, PB is a good choice.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 21, 2013, 07:42:47 PM
PowerBASIC sent me the files for PB/Win and PB/Forms last night. I received an email from a new employee.  I do believe them and the current lack of communications should improve with this new person.  I want to thank Eric Pearson of Perfect Sync for his help in getting this resolved.

Now comes the task of learning PB/Win, which is not as well documented as it could be.  Nothing looks insurmountable.  I'll try PB/Forms for a month or two before deciding if I need a better GUI builder.  Firefly looks like it's the most VB like, which is my background. 

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 21, 2013, 08:02:09 PM
Hmm... You still haven't received the discs you ordered?

I am glad you got the e-versions.  Kudos to the new guy.  I hope things at PB Inc. continue to improve.


Quote
Firefly looks it's the most VB like, which is my background.

I came from a heavy background with VB.  I used FireFly in the past and I can say it is really does "feel like home" if you are a VB programmer.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jim Dunn on September 21, 2013, 08:23:52 PM
Now I understand why I'm still banned from posting on the PowerBASIC board, and why Jim Bailey hasn't replied to any of my emails for a month...

James OShea said he was in the Florida accident.  Few things more important than your life, hope he recovers.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 21, 2013, 08:48:00 PM
Now I understand why I'm still banned from posting on the PowerBASIC board...

Egads, you got banned?

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 21, 2013, 09:02:57 PM
Hmm... You still haven't received the discs you ordered?

Not yet.  They said they will be resending them.  Now that I have the files, as long as I get the disks eventually, it's fine. 

The scenario as I understand it was they sent the first set that was lost in the mail (happens),  Jim got into an accident before he could send the second set.  It's feasible and I am willing to accept it. 

I downloaded the  Firefly Demo and installed it figuring the PB/Win would arrive long before the 30 day evaluation period was up.  Wrong.  I used it a little so I have some idea what it has to offer. 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 21, 2013, 09:57:33 PM
The scenario as I understand it was they sent the first set that was lost in the mail (happens),  Jim got into an accident before he could send the second set.  It's feasible and I am willing to accept it.


It is disheartening that nobody but Jim could mail them out.  It seems PB went from being a one-man-show under Bob, to being a one-man-show under Jim.  Hopefully Jim heals up and can get back to work.  If handled properly, PB still has a long life ahead of it.


I downloaded the  Firefly Demo and installed it figuring the PB/Win would arrive long before the 30 day evaluation period was up.  Wrong.  I used it a little so I have some idea what it has to offer.

There is likely a way Paul can reset that for you or perhaps give you a temporary key that will expire in 30 days.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 22, 2013, 02:41:05 PM
There is likely a way Paul can reset that for you or perhaps give you a temporary key that will expire in 30 days.

I was able to use it enough to realize that it would probably be my choice to replace PB/Forms.  I am still experimenting with Phoenix Visual Design though.  It seems intellisense is the biggest benefit of Phoenix.  PB/Forms is not without it's benefits including the ability to import VB forms. 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 22, 2013, 06:55:27 PM
I was able to use it enough to realize that it would probably be my choice to replace PB/Forms.  I am still experimenting with Phoenix Visual Design though.  It seems intellisense is the biggest benefit of Phoenix.  PB/Forms is not without it's benefits including the ability to import VB forms.

Another nice thing about Phoenix is the way it handles tabs in the designer.  It is the way ALL GUI designers should handle tabs and is truly WYSIWYG.

PB Forms is nice too, but a bit limited and dated.  Once PB 10 came out, there were improvements that could have been made to PB Forms.  That said, I do use it for some things.

Phoenix, FireFly and EZGUI all have their pros and cons.  They do have several things in common.  All three are stable and all three have developers who care and provide excellent customer support.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 25, 2013, 12:30:26 PM
I am amazed to see that, on the PowerBASIC forum, the speculations are still going on about the topic of this thread.

While the lack of (an apparent) reaction from the official staff, should be considered indeed as the answer to the question.

 ???
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on September 25, 2013, 02:40:17 PM
I'm glad that the topic moved to the PB forum. No more requests to delete accounts.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 25, 2013, 07:15:29 PM
While the lack of (an apparent) reaction from the official staff, should be considered indeed as the answer to the question.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 26, 2013, 12:54:04 AM
I am amazed to see that, on the PowerBASIC forum, the speculations are still going on about the topic of this thread.While the lack of (an apparent) reaction from the official staff, should be considered indeed as the answer to the question.

I would think that until Jim gets back to work, even just from home, you will not see any official PowerBASIC representation on the board.  Jim's account still shows 08/26/13 as the last sign on.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 26, 2013, 08:41:40 AM
James--

You, and others, should forget about Jim return.  :-X
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on September 26, 2013, 01:54:07 PM
You, and others, should forget about Jim return.  :-X

There you go being "negative" again.

But seriously, why do you think that Jim will not return after he recovers?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 26, 2013, 02:38:11 PM
So call me "negative" again, because it will take at least a couple years for him to recover...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jim Dunn on September 26, 2013, 04:51:07 PM
A couple of years?!  I don't know what's worse, that no one will tell us what happened... or that there's ONLY ONE PERSON RUNNING POWERBASIC AT A TIME?!  : (
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 26, 2013, 09:00:11 PM
A couple of years?!  I don't know what's worse, that no one will tell us what happened... or that there's ONLY ONE PERSON RUNNING POWERBASIC AT A TIME?!  : (

Within one year, the owner has died and his replacement is supposedly side-lined for a serious amount of time (no reason to doubt Patrice).  The staff that are left STILL haven't figured out how to mail James his CDs (just how low are the hiring standards there?).  Nothing really reassuring about PB at this point with the silence going on.


As long as the status quo of a company is unclear, I wouldn't buy anything. Setting up a development environment is always a long-term investment. Under these circumstances you should consider well how you want to work in the future.

Very wise words.  I feel sorry for those who solely depend on PB.  One should never solely depend on a single programming language.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Gary Beene on September 28, 2013, 09:23:05 PM
You'll recall, folks that the POFFS database hasn't been updated in years and that PowerBASIC Inc. seemed unwilling to allow any future database updates.

Hopefully y'all have been keeping your local thread files up to date with gbThreads?  I generally update my local thread database about once a week.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 28, 2013, 09:31:20 PM
What is GBThreads?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Edwin Knoppert on September 28, 2013, 09:32:55 PM
I can assure you *after* they moved to the new board the board topics had little to offer!
If you need ideas and good code use poffs, unf. the code maybe somewhat old but the ideas where certainly better.
Just translate that code to new code and you'll be fine for years..

Btw.., i still have the chm edition  of poffs.. (html helpfile)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Gary Beene on September 28, 2013, 09:39:10 PM
Edwin,
That's a very narrow view of the forums - one that I can't let go uncontested.

I can assure you that the new board has much to offer! Especially for folks who want to work with PBWin9 and PBWin10, there's a ton of software/information for folks.

If you're dedicated to the exclusive use of SDK, then Edwin's comment might have a measure of validity. SDK has not seen that much light of day in the last few years.  As the SDK folks lament, DDT has gotten the greater focus on the forums.


Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Gary Beene on September 28, 2013, 09:44:35 PM
gbThreads is a utility that I released in the PowerBASIC source code forum. 

The distribution file has a utility called gbThreadDownloader that downloads threads from the PowerBASIC forums and stores them on your local PC. It also parses the thread files to create a searchable database of the thread files.

gbThreads itself is provides the ability to view the local thread files and to search the thread database.

The online Help page for gbThreads is at http://www.garybeene.com/sw/gbthreads.htm.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on September 28, 2013, 10:14:26 PM
> As the SDK folks lament, DDT has gotten the greater focus on the forums.

This is why I opened this forum, but unfortunately it was too late to "recover" all these talented programmers that had left the PB forum.

I once warned Bob that the addition of DDT only features such the graphic control was going to split the community. Now, it is irreversible. I think that the DDT victory has been a pyrrhic victory.

When in search for ideas, I go to the Code Project forum.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 28, 2013, 10:46:00 PM
DDT had its place and was crucial to the future of PB had vaporware like the Linux version actually been released.  One set of GUI commands that will work on all supported platforms is crucial for a multi-platform language. 

However, DDT never should have been the only option promoted and supported for Windows.  DDT is severely limited and does not support controls that have been standard in Windows for years.  PB Forms does not even properly support DDT and all it has to offer, which only cripples DDT for the people using PB Forms.


gbThreads is a utility that I released in the PowerBASIC source code forum.

You are the PB equivalent of The Shell Answer Man.  ;D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on September 28, 2013, 10:57:35 PM
Quote
DDT has gotten the greater focus on the forums

Yes, for the novice or formal VB users.

Things were much sharper in the old days, and we could realy learn from each other (this is why i spoke of Fundamentals about Poffs).

And to say the truth, there is nothing SDK coders could learn from DDT.

It is clear that ZALE's DDT has splitten the community in two, and as José said, many of the most talented programmers have left the PB forum, and some of them have moved here :)

Without all the time spent on DDT (that just covers a small percentage of the core API) we could have got a 64-bit version probably before the passing of Bob Zale.

But now it is too late.

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Stefanik on September 28, 2013, 11:42:33 PM
Patrice, I suspect you may have overestimated the capabilities there. With Bob being the only person who was (or could be) working on the core compiler, I suspect that its ability to emit 64-bit code was a lot further away than they hinted at. I wonder if they even have a minimally functional alpha for internal testing that the guys there can work with as a foundation.

Regardless, I agree that it would be tough for a developer to justify investing any significant resources into PowerBasic, particularly with the lack of information coming from the company. They have no apparent development or marketing strategy that I can discern, and there's been almost no interaction with their customer base recently. I think even a simple "state of the union" article posted to their forums would alleviate a lot of the concern and at give people an idea of where things are at and what's planned for the near-term.

Edit: I would say that Brice made a good point that DDT would have been essential if they had planned to branch out to supporting other platforms like Linux. To make those applications cross-platform, you'd have to break away from dependency on the Windows API and provide some kind of generalized interface to a wide range of platform-specific services, including graphics. It looks like they were making moves in that general direction, but the problem was they kind of went half-way and then stopped. And of course, the cross-platform support never materialized.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on September 29, 2013, 01:03:36 AM
I doubt that DDT was intended for cross-platform, since Bob always said that PB for Linux would be a console compiler.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on September 29, 2013, 01:05:34 AM
Without all the time spent on DDT (that just covers a small percentage of the core API) we could have got a 64-bit version probably before the passing of Bob Zale.

Given that he was over a decade late in producing a true 32-bit compiler (PB 9), it is hard to imagine Bob producing a competitive 64-bit compiler had he lived another ten years (which would have brought him to the average male life-span in the USA). 

The 32-bit compiler we have now does not even properly take advantage of advanced 32-bit processors.  32-bit processors are now dead and have not been a standard in several years.  PB was far behind industry standards on 32-bit processor architecture when 32-bit processors died.  Heck, PB was always 10-15 years behind industry standards for everything. 

Bob intentionally kept PB from progressing.  Had Bob dropped the ridiculous idea that new versions of PB had to be compatible with archaic legacy versions of Windows, the compilers could have progressed and remained competitive with current industry standards. 

I do realize that there is a user base who needs to support these legacy systems, but PowerBASIC 8 does not magically stop working just because PB version 9 comes out.  PB 8 should have been marketed for use on pre-XP versions of Windows and PB 9 should have been marketed for XP and above, with PB 10 following the lead of PB 9.  PB 9 and 10 could have focused on current standards instead of trying to live in the past and support Windows '95 which came out in the fall of '94.  Those needing to support pre-XP systems could have chugged along with PB 8.

A programming language can't progress when each new version jumps back to the fall of '94.

It is true Bob was only one man.  I spent years watching what one man named Fred did with PureBasic and how it was always advancing, adapting and supporting current standards.  Eventually, Fred added Timo and PureBasic got even better.  I have watched PowerBASIC remain stagnant while PureBasic has grown by leaps and bounds in the same time frame and added support for Windows, Linux and OS X, along with 64-bit.  And for those needing to support legacy versions of Windows for some things, all of the old versions of PureBasic are accessible to registered users.  PureBasic is the most mature indie BASIC out there and Fred has done it all with one price for life and not nickel-and-diming the community over upgrades, visual designers, a console version, a 2d engine and a 3d engine.  One license covers it all.  No P. T. Barnum marketing schemes, false promises or vaporware.  Just a language that stays current and competitive, produced by an author who chooses not to live in the past.  So one man can do it, as it was just one man at PureBasic for many years.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Edwin Knoppert on September 30, 2013, 02:39:51 PM
I wasn't speaking about ddt vs sdk
There is only the coincidence  that when ddt came out also during that time a few programmers left and also that some idea's where no longer discussed (which may be more of a feeling than specifics)
Roughly said you can say that during the old forums there where more interesting topics than after.

I also find ddt a mis programmed part in PB but that's not really the issue for me regarding this matter.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 05, 2013, 07:22:23 AM
There is only the coincidence  that when ddt came out also during that time a few programmers left

There were several exoduses over the years of varying sizes.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Edwin Knoppert on October 05, 2013, 09:16:41 AM
There were several exoduses over the years of varying sizes.

Anyone not leaving in those days was a ... :)
And now you're stuck in the void...

haha
Title: A note from Vivian Zale -
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 05, 2013, 04:26:19 PM
Quote
We know there is considerable concern on the Forum about PowerBASIC...when the next release will be...the lack of customer service for the past couple of months...and of course, questions about the future.

With the loss of Bob Zale, there have certainly been huge challenges, and on top of that, we lost a couple of key staff members. A new management team is now on board. Their task is to focus on the technical and customer service issues we've seen throughout the Forum.

All we can do is apologize for the lapse. Please be considerate when posting and know that our customers were important to Bob, and are important to us. We are working diligently to move PowerBASIC forward.

PowerBASIC is restructuring and will make these changes as quickly as possible.

We are striving to maintain PowerBASIC's character and reputation in tandem with preparing to launch new and innovative products.

Sales@PowerBASIC.com

Vivian Zale

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 05, 2013, 08:41:56 PM
Quote
Didn't say anything of substance.


...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 06, 2013, 08:51:14 AM
Saying is never the problem. The problem is what happens substantial.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 06, 2013, 10:38:14 AM
Quote
Didn't say anything of substance.
... but it says a lot to us! The company is currently not operational and totally overburdened in its present state. In other words, a classic case of mismanagement. No more staff, the widow also sick and the temporary support staff is completely incompetent, congratulations!  ::)

Sadly, due to Jim's accident, it seems that PB is back in the same position it was a year ago when Bob died.  They appear to be starting over, yet again.

They will never be able to recover that which has been lost in this past year of mismanagement.  There comes a time when you have to be smart enough to know when to give up.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James Klutho on October 06, 2013, 08:46:47 PM
The compiler market is a tough one to make a buck.  Most development languages appear to be at no cost.  What are the top commercial compilers for large (non-indie) development?  On the C/C++ side, is it just Microsoft?  Intel?  Most compilers appear to have folded and are no longer supported and can be downloaded for free (Borland, Watcom etc.).  Even Microsoft has their Express versions that are free.  Mingw C/C++,TinyC and Pelle C appear great for the hobby programmer.

Other languages like Java, Python,PHP are all free.

The Basic language has FreeBasic (no cost), and others at nominal cost (PureBasic, IBasic)- with Powerbasic actually being near the top end at $200 US (which in my opinion has been worth the price).

Is the money to be made in development in the tool and control market?  Sure does not seem to be in the compilers themselves.  What are people's thoughts?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Christian Damhus on October 07, 2013, 12:09:36 PM
Hello,

well this is my first post. I usually prefer to read the comments in this great forum.

Maybe the change is also a chance to put PB in a new direction? Maybe a new leader (or head) or a new team will find new ways and strategies for PB? Maybe somebody will buy the firm? There are many GUI-Tools out there. Maybe someone who has developed a great GUI-Tool will buy PB and merged the products and continue the development. That would be something like PB+.

I don't know if you get my point. My English is a bit rusty.

Best wishes from the Münsterland

Chris
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 07, 2013, 03:50:10 PM
However it will not be possible without sufficient investment capital.

Unfortunately, PowerBASIC probably has more sentimental value than financial value at this point.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 07, 2013, 07:10:36 PM
Indeed there is a lot of affect with PB, from its community...

However the future is not with the old groupies, but with new customers, and the pragmatics would probably not put a cent on it.

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 08, 2013, 03:56:25 PM
I have been told that Jim Bailey's account at PB is now showing:

Last Activity: Oct 4th, 2013 04:00 PM


Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 08, 2013, 04:16:16 PM
Yes, that was the time Vivian's message has been posted...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 08, 2013, 04:30:49 PM
The only realistic way to attract new customers, is a complete redesign of the old product range. A modern high performance compiler looks different. A brand new advanced IDE, 32 and 64 bit compliance, a redesigned Forms tool, a critical proofreading of the actual codes before the modernised release, extended intelligence and some unique features for the experts to be competitive. The performance benchmark for this is exclusively the market.
Not an easy task, and certainly not cheap.

Anything out of Team PB at this point, should be considered gravy.

On another note, did James ever receive his CDs?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on October 08, 2013, 04:53:30 PM
Jim being back, even if he is just working from home, is a good thing.  The whole company should be a home business at this point anyway.  In a perfect world/alternative reality, Bob would be pounding out PowerBASIC X64 from his home office while we PowerBASIC "groupies" wait anxiously.  Alas.

I haven't received the disks as yet but since I have the files I can wait for the disks.  I will send an email to Jim in a week or two if I don't get them.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 08, 2013, 05:14:33 PM
I haven't received the disks as yet but since I have the files I can wait for the disks.  I will send an email to Jim in a week or two if I don't get them.

There was somebody on the other forum who mentioned getting a T-Shirt recently, so hopefully that is a sign your discs may be coming soon.

There is something I need to order, but it is only available on CD.  However, I will not order until you receive your CDs.  I need to be sure orders are actually being filled, before I order.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Stefanik on October 09, 2013, 07:42:56 AM
I was thinking about PowerBasic earlier today, and the issue really isn't the core language itself. It has pretty much everything that's needed aside from 64-bit support. What the stock product lacks is a comprehensive set of headers for current versions of Windows, and it has an IDE that's straight out of 1993. There's a lot of work they could do "around the edges" to make it a better product over the short term and not even have to worry about touching the compiler itself for the time being.

That said, I was thinking that the thing for PowerBasic to do would be to license José's headers and make them standard, and license Paul's Firefly as the default IDE for the language. If they could reach some kind of agreement there, I think it would be a way to bring new developers, make an easier transition for the VB6 folks who are steering clear of .NET and bring in those upgrade dollars.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 09, 2013, 10:04:57 AM
I was thinking about PowerBasic earlier today, and the issue really isn't the core language itself. It has pretty much everything that's needed aside from 64-bit support. What the stock product lacks is a comprehensive set of headers for current versions of Windows, and it has an IDE that's straight out of 1993. There's a lot of work they could do "around the edges" to make it a better product over the short term and not even have to worry about touching the compiler itself for the time being.

That said, I was thinking that the thing for PowerBasic to do would be to license José's headers and make them standard, and license Paul's Firefly as the default IDE for the language. If they could reach some kind of agreement there, I think it would be a way to bring new developers, make an easier transition for the VB6 folks who are steering clear of .NET and bring in those upgrade dollars.


Just my opinion for long yeasrs.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 09, 2013, 06:19:50 PM
There's a lot of work they could do "around the edges" to make it a better product over the short term and not even have to worry about touching the compiler itself for the time being.

I agree, 100%.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 13, 2013, 07:56:31 PM
PowerBASIC web-site, seems to be down...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Mayerhoffer on October 13, 2013, 08:01:53 PM
They are not making a good impression that is for sure.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 13, 2013, 08:40:29 PM
Last week i heared the the germans developed new Drone "together" with USA.
Means WE developed and paid the Drone, USA now flies the Drone.
Now USA has the Drone but germany is not allowed ro use it.
Germany was just forced to paid $600 Mio. for it. Its good for USA then they can use the new toy to shoot around anywhere in the word.

Lately, any messages we get from USA are bad messages.
Messages from unpaid debt, liars, terrorists, new wars, NSA and so on.
Does anybody have a good message from USA?

PS: We can now accept bets if PB will reopen or will stay shut down.
In this worst case, Gary Bene has an offline copy of the PB Forum, thats roughly actual.
We'll continue to support PB from, germany and i hope from Spain. And mostly we do WHAT WE SAY.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Kev Peel on October 13, 2013, 10:09:19 PM
I will miss the PB forum the most  :'(
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Christian Damhus on October 13, 2013, 10:35:16 PM
Is PB forever gone now? Maybe they just face some server problems?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Mayerhoffer on October 13, 2013, 10:42:04 PM
Is PB forever gone now? Maybe they just face some server problems?

It has been a issue Since the passing of Bob, they don't bother to post any advance warring , send out emails or use twitter. It has a lot of people nervous thinking about all that has happened with Bob Passing.

I personally think they have the server on a wall switch and turn it off with the lights by accident. The answer is most likely NO. We just have no way of telling , but one never knows.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Kev Peel on October 13, 2013, 10:46:33 PM
IMO, the beginning of the end sadly began with the death of Bob on 6 Nov 2012

The best thing that could be done now is the company put up for auction before it is really too late!
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Mayerhoffer on October 13, 2013, 11:11:22 PM
IMO, the beginning of the end sadly began with the death of Bob on 6 Nov 2012

The best thing that could be done now is the company put up for auction before it is really too late!

Sad but true, I don't think there is more than Intellectual property and a reputation. Unfortunately the second part has been tarnished to the point of no return. Customers don't take kind to a website down and adding the unstable environment lack of any communications makes it look lie 4 cds and a coffee maker.

I have moved back to Unix and was going to dump all my PB tools and code to the PB site to day. My nephew went to collage this year and he stopped using the machine with PB on it. Might be a good thing. I would of annoyed some 3rd party vendors, so I just dumped them while typing this in the scrap bin and shredded them. Sitting here waiting, I have become very annoyed. I really don't see  any reason to drag this on any longer wasting my time Theo's  space and band width. I put one thing up here that is unique. Maybe more later, if any thing is left..uh blank I think I over did it.. It should make some people happy in more than one way ..LOL, I am really done and probably my last post regarding PB in any respect.
I will miss PB site too, I have bigger fish to fry back to the days of old. No hard feeling just out of time.

-Mike


Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James Klutho on October 14, 2013, 12:03:34 AM
It has been well over a week since Vivian said that a new team was in place, but not a peep out of the them though she said that communication was high on the list to fix.  They are not off to a good start.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 14, 2013, 08:48:48 AM
Is there hope?
Under monetary aspects i would say "stay down".
Server Maintenance? (http://web.archive.org/web/20131004235253/http://www.powerbasic.com/)

Ok, don't worry PB-Forum is not gone. Even though "the Power" tried again to "change everything" we still have it!

Here is it:

PowerBasic Forum :-) (http://web.archive.org/web/20130808071439/http://www.powerbasic.com/support/pbforums/forumdisplay.php?f=22)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Keith D. Shelton on October 14, 2013, 04:42:26 PM
PowerBasic Server is back up.
KS
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jim Dunn on October 14, 2013, 07:23:36 PM
(down for 2 days+ and nothing reported on https://twitter.com/powerbasic)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 14, 2013, 07:29:35 PM
Powerbasic is UP again. 14-10-13 / 19:28
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Stefanik on October 14, 2013, 07:51:25 PM
It's kind of like an alien abduction. They disappear, no one knows where they've gone and a few days later they're back with no memory of what's happened to them.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Nick Luick on October 14, 2013, 08:40:54 PM
Powerbasic last post 10/13/13 6:37 AM EST
down
Powebasic next post 10/14/13 10:59 AM EST
-----------------------------------------------
down time                              28 hrs 22 minutes

Really, for all the dogs nipping at Powerbasic, is that really a long time for a Sunday.  I've had my broadband provider offline for days, and then say it was my lines or equipment.  I put a sock in their mouth when I told them it must be the same equipment failure occurring with all my neighbors.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Stefanik on October 14, 2013, 09:04:47 PM
Really, for all the dogs nipping at Powerbasic, is that really a long time for a Sunday.  I've had my broadband provider offline for days, and then say it was my lines or equipment.  I put a sock in their mouth when I told them it must be the same equipment failure occurring with all my neighbors.

It depends on how long you think it's acceptable for your complete website to be down, including the ability for people to place orders. 28 hours? If one of our servers are down for more than 10 minutes, weekend or not, we have folks jumping around like their hair is on fire.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 14, 2013, 09:17:14 PM
From a nipping dog perspective:

Quote
preparing to launch new and innovative products
thus no time to detect a server failure, especially during the weekend.

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Nick Luick on October 15, 2013, 01:42:25 AM
Patrice,

Why should you even care or pay attention  You already confirmed long ago that you don't use Powerbasic anymore.  You never have any positive comments.  I realize things have changed, but how may here are posting about Microsoft when it completely drops a product you have been using.  Or breaks your software with upgrades. 

Bob offered a solid compiler at a very good price, and to date and distant future, it does what you paid for, with very few glitches or work arounds.  The forums have always been a plus.  A few years back, I took a chance on Cad software that had a forum, but they discontinued the forum when plagued with hackers, but I still use the software.  I think Planet Squires did something close, when it limited access to its forum to only version 3+ users.

I gave my opinion, enough for me.



 

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 15, 2013, 09:40:11 AM
Quote
You already confirmed long ago that you don't use Powerbasic anymore
Wrong you are, i keep using it among the other languages from my toolbox, but i am not limiting myself to one single tool and i am using the most appropriate to solve specific tasks.

I needed a 64-bit compiler, and that forced me to master a syntax that i do not like, but i keep dreaming in Basic not in C++.

Quote
You never have any positive comments.
Like you, i express my opinion, and i did that long before the passing of Bob Zale, as you can read it in my "SDK programming" section

Being able to make comparison is what makes me free, it is like those who never went out of their native country and think that the whole world is eating fast food.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jim Dunn on October 15, 2013, 03:11:04 PM
Yep, I enjoy all the comments, it has opened up my world, now I'm programming in BC9 and MINGW-NUWEN (C++) and Tiny-C and Perl... all thanks to differing opinions and conflicting comments...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jon Eskdale on October 20, 2013, 03:46:07 PM
PowerBasic site appears to be down again! Perhaps we are not meant to work on Sundays!!
Jon
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on October 20, 2013, 04:01:58 PM
(http://wpmedia.blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/04/closed-on-sundays1.jpg?w=210&h=185)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: David Roberts on October 20, 2013, 05:33:11 PM
The IT guy is on holiday this week so the site will be up again on 28th October.

We should look on the bright side - he could have taken a fortnight.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 20, 2013, 08:23:14 PM
Quote
It has been a issue Since the passing of Bob, they don't bother to post any advance warring , send out emails or use twitter. It has a lot of people nervous thinking about all that has happened with Bob Passing.
When the company no longer cares about their product or takes pride in it, demonstrates a severe lack of work ethic, and no longer cares about the users, there really is nothing one can lay their hope on and try to be positive about.  I do not blame the people who are nervous or the people who have jumped ship.  Heck, PB Inc. has kinda jumped ship themselves.  You can't blame the users for treating the product with the same lack of respect that PB treats the product with and you can't blame the users for treating PB Inc. with the same lack of respect that PB Inc. treats the users with.


Quote
IMO, the beginning of the end sadly began with the death of Bob on 6 Nov 2012
IMHO, I put the beginning of the end a couple of years before Bob's death.  Bob's death merely hastened the timeline along.


Quote
The best thing that could be done now is the company put up for auction before it is really too late!
That time has passed.  The complete mismanagement of this past year has all but destroyed any legitimate value the company and products held.  Unless PB Inc. is going to pay a company to take ownership of PB Inc. and the products, I can't see anybody trying to buy it when PB Inc. has all but destroyed the user base over this past year.  PB Inc. might want to consider just shutting their doors for good and leaving the site down and just disappearing now, instead of prolonging things and eventually finding themselves in bankruptcy, severely in debt, or something equally as unpleasant.  PB had a good run.  Bob is gone.  With Bob gone, it seems to be like a lost episode of The Three Stooges at PB Inc.  Vivian has lost her husband, is reported to have some health issues and should worry about herself and her family and not have to deal with the stress of PB Inc. anymore.  There is no shame in shutting the door on PB Inc. and nobody can say she didn't try to keep it going.


Quote
It has been well over a week since Vivian said that a new team was in place, but not a peep out of the them though she said that communication was high on the list to fix.  They are not off to a good start.
Is the second or third new team?  I have lost count.  Each team seems to get progressively worse.


Quote
It is every time the same, they feed us with lies and false promises and think we're stupid enough to believe that, but that's a mistake, most people have long understood that the company is at the end. Mrs. Zale is obviously no longer able to solve the problems of her company. I've rarely seen that a company is going so unprofessional!
It is almost to the point where it feels like you have people taking advantage of a widow.


Quote
Hey Nick, it's not the downtime that suck, it is the fact that it happens all the time, and apparently no one is doing anything about it. Most of the users have already been therefore fed up. Even the business conduct is under each level!
It truly is a case of "just when you think things could not get worse"...


Quote
Why should you even care or pay attention
Given that this is a programming site and not a dating site, I find it disturbing that you have such an emotional investment in what Patrice thinks or cares about. ;D


Quote
You never have any positive comments.
Given that Bob Zale was well-known for his negative comments, Patrice would fit right in with the PB Community, no?  However, I have yet to see Patrice make a negative comment, he has simply expressed an honest opinion.  Honesty is a positive, not a negative.  Just because you disagree with Patrice's opinion does not make his comments negative.  If a negative light is cast on something, it is generally because of the person holding the flashlight and doing the observing.


Quote
but how may here are posting about Microsoft when it completely drops a product you have been using.  Or breaks your software with upgrades.

Getting upset about Microsoft making a screw-up would be like getting upset because a baby wets itself.  It is one of those things you expect.  Bob held his products to a higher standard than Microsoft.  The shape PB Inc. is in now, where they can't even function well enough to stick CDs in an envelope and mail them to the customer who ordered them and paid for them, is unfathomable to most users.


Quote
A few years back, I took a chance on Cad software that had a forum, but they discontinued the forum when plagued with hackers, but I still use the software.
There is a big difference between a compiler and a CAD program.  Unsupported software is often not allowed to be used in a corporate environment.  Even for paid contract work, some people would not ethically use PB at this point, because it is all-but unsupported due to the state of flux PB Inc. is in.


Quote
The IT guy is on holiday this week so the site will be up again on 28th October.
With the continual changes of "teams" at PB, nobody has even been on staff long enough to be entitled to any vacation/holiday time. ;D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Stefanik on October 20, 2013, 08:35:03 PM
Is the second or third new team?  I have lost count.  Each team seems to get progressively worse.

To be honest, I doubt very much that there is any real "team" and it looks like there isn't even really an intact company at this point. I agree with you that their actions (or lack thereof) are eroding the inherent value in PowerBasic itself, and that's a shame.

Edit: I do feel for those developers with businesses who largely (or solely) depend on the PowerBasic ecosystem. What PowerBasic is doing just doesn't affect their customers, it also has a negative impact on those third-party tool and component developers who have invested so much in the language.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 20, 2013, 08:46:16 PM
To be honest, I doubt very much that there is any real "team" and it looks like there isn't even really an intact company at this point. Their actions (or lack thereof) are eroding the inherent value in PowerBasic itself, and that's a shame.

I agree 100%.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James Klutho on October 20, 2013, 11:35:47 PM
A couple of months ago I checked the forum membership, and it looked pretty consistent that 400 to 450 new members were added each year going back almost 10 years.  I have to believe this is some proxy to new licenses.  Through August 21, 2013 only about 50 new forum members were added this year (and none since then in part due to the forum being abandoned).  From my perspective, the big payday was always the upgrade, but the new licenses kept the place running during the interim.  Assuming PB truly has employees, the company has to be bleeding money and I understand Vivian's desire to keep Bob's life work going but at some point she has to look out for herself.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 21, 2013, 12:10:53 AM
Through August 21, 2013 only about 50 new forum members were added this year (and none since then in part due to the forum being abandoned).

I wonder how many of those were legitimate sales and how many were curiosity seekers or those joining just to download some attachments before the forum disappeared?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James Klutho on October 21, 2013, 01:56:14 AM
They all look pretty legitimate to me.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: David Roberts on October 21, 2013, 01:59:43 AM
Actually, the marketing guy is on holiday this week. It was an easy mistake to make - he is called Ian Thomas Guru.
 
The IT guy popped out for some cream for his coffee three weeks ago and nobody has seen him since. I don't know if there is a shortage of cream in Florida or whether he has no intention of returning.
 
As you know Vivian Zale is head of sales. Her assistant, Sarah, is responsible for shipping disks but is currently on maternity leave; which explains why James Oshea is still waiting for his disks. I am not sure when Sarah is back but hang in there James, you are at the top of Sarah's list. Now, most of the staff at PB have dual roles and Sarah is a bit of a coder. She was working on the 64 bit version of the compilers but, obviously, that had to be put on the 'back burner'. It will suffer a further set back as Sarah will have more than six months of sales to deal with on her return.
 
Kevin, the cleaner, started last Sunday. PB's offices are not large and the server room also doubles as the cleaner's cupboard. Kevin pulled the plug on the servers so that he could use his vacuum cleaner. He was spoken to last week but he may well find a part of his anatomy in a sling tomorrow as it seems that he has done it again.

Jim Bailey is back on his feet. Well, foot as the other one is still on the mend.
 
Stop Press:
 
There was a shortage of cream in Florida and the IT guy didn't manage to get any until he got to Brunswick in Georgia. He will be back at his desk on Monday. He would have got back sooner but he was abducted by aliens when driving through Jacksonville. He cannot remember anything of the incident. I can understand that because I cannot remember anything when I was abducted a few years ago on the way to a theatre.

So, there you have it: The marketing guy is only off for a week, Sarah will be back shortly, the IT guy did not leave, Jim is back in the fold and Kevin is unlikely to make the same mistake next Sunday. Oh, someone will notice the server's plug tomorrow and the site will be back up at about 0830, Monday.  :)
 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Stefanik on October 21, 2013, 06:03:19 AM
You put far too much time and energy into that.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James OShea on October 21, 2013, 07:36:36 AM
The cleaning crew pulling the plug on the web server for their vacuum cleaner every weekend sounds plausible and is a better explanation than PowerBASIC has ever given us.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Mayerhoffer on October 21, 2013, 08:23:02 AM
David , the nerve of you accusing hard working Americans of doing holidays , Holidays is for real important people in the USA like Government workers, they can stay home and get paid for the same thing they do at work. Absolutely Nothing.

Us working slobs ( in the states) have to take vacations.

Besides the rest of the story seems pretty much on the money, the normal, nothing but the truth  ;D

We will let it slide.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 21, 2013, 09:41:53 AM
What happened to Jim "Bailey" and "Jeff Daniels"?
Did they take a walk with "Johnny Walker" ?

Quote
ERROR

The requested URL could not be retrieved

The following error was encountered while trying to retrieve the URL: http://www.powerbasic.com/support/pbforums/index.php

Connection to 70.90.69.33 failed.

The system returned: (110) Connection timed out

The remote host or network may be down. Please try the request again.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Paul Squires on October 21, 2013, 12:52:29 PM
What happened to Jim "Bailey" and "Jeff Daniels"?

I have always believed from day one that those two "staff members" were simply pseudonyms that BZ used when he wanted to make a point with a customer. The language and tone of the emails were almost exactly the same as that used by him. Later, if the conversation was still not to his liking, the responses would "escalate" to BZ and he would then post under his real account.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 21, 2013, 02:43:08 PM
The names were choosen in a way that somebody could have such an impression.
But these names also imply another problem, that is one of the reason why PB went downwards.

As it looks, I'll soon ask Garry for his offline-copy of the Forum.
Maybe I can put it in a Dropbox and share it this way.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on October 23, 2013, 03:29:55 AM
Guys,

There is something missing in this whole discussion, the current PB Compilers are in fact good tools and can come close to doing anything in Win32 in terms of EXE and DLL files. With the bare compilers there is almost unlimited room for expansion with both collections of procedures in text files that can be included while relying on the redundant code removal to ensure that no junk is added. Then there is the new library system with SLL components that start to give PB programmers the convenience of other languages that have had add in libraries for many years.

It has a close to MASM compatible assembler that is truly no slouch and in combination with other capacities will be a useful tool until the dead end of Win32. If PowerBASIC closed its doors today nothing here will change as the compilers exist and have the existing capacity. From what I have seen almost none of these new capacities have been exploited.

The coming era of Win64 is another matter. With Bob passing away it may not happen in any hurry but then there is no reason to only restrict yourself to one tool, there are a miriad of other tools available and if PB does not produce a 64 bit compiler, use something else.

Much has been done, look at how good Jose's include files are, what is wrong with producing a whole pile of libraries, procedures in text form and some rock 'n roll assembler to get the pace up ?  ;D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Marc Giao on October 23, 2013, 05:48:54 AM
Steve, thanks opening the window letting some fresh air in, everyone, take a deep breath now and enjoy the sun...

"Don't worry be happy" :)

Marc
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 23, 2013, 10:18:27 AM
@Tom, we should see the positive also. I have removed on post that looked too dark in my eyes.
Besides that the PowerBasic Compiler is still my best tool for x32 and i have no reason to change my opinion because the Company continues to behave like many US Companies these days.
Yesterday somebody told me that major US IT Companies make a hell of money ... not with IT ... but with filing Law suits.
Its what they earn most money with. Its the reason why some of them seem to earn so much. Not with real work.
If i look at the their presidents yesterday ideas about the drone strikes, and then at Windows 8.1 ... then i can only think "The whole country has no culture". So no need to just blame PowerBasic.  ;D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 23, 2013, 01:26:54 PM
@Steve:  Many of us are happily plugging along with PowerBASIC and will continue to do so, until such time it no longer works on current versions of Windows. ;D


... and what the remaining software industry does is no measure or excuse for the misconduct by PowerBASIC Inc.! Strictly speaking, the company has no future at all. >:(
What is worse than the misconduct of PowerBASIC is the person who KNOWS orders are not being filled (James has still NOT received the CDs he paid for), yet created a blog post encouraging people to buy PowerBASIC.  What he doesn't realize is his recent actions can only hurt PowerBASIC.  If people buy PowerBASIC based on his blog post, and then find they can't receive the product they have paid for, all he has accomplished is to create more problems for PowerBASIC and create more disgruntled customers.

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 23, 2013, 03:15:38 PM
I read last time in the Forum from another US Software company.
They sold a Backup Program.
Finally the RESTORE of the saved files did not work.
The support explained "Its a backup program not a restore program".
PB is just ONE of these ... only $$$ and no culture.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 26, 2013, 02:46:26 AM
If there is to be a future for PowerBASIC, they need to immediately, and permanently, ban the person who has shanghaied the official forums and turned it into his own personal jihad of self-promotion and vicious attacks against anybody who tries to get him to calm down.  PB Inc.: This person is driving away some of the customers you have left.  If you do NOT put an end to this, it will only get worse and you will see more customers leave.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Stefanik on October 26, 2013, 03:04:36 AM
Quote
... his own personal jihad of self-promotion ...

I've been steering clear of that particular thread, but yeah, things have definitely gone sideways there. The irony is that I think the poll could actually provide some useful information. We've discussed this before, but there's things that the folks at PowerBasic could do that would be a worthwhile upgrade (e.g.: a new visual designer) that doesn't involve the core compiler itself. But I would agree, that poll really should have originated from PowerBasic themselves, not a third-party vendor.

Edit: It looks like he just deleted the entire thread that includes the poll.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 26, 2013, 03:29:32 AM
The irony is that I think the poll could actually provide some useful information. We've discussed this before, but there's things that the folks at PowerBasic could do that would be a worthwhile upgrade (e.g.: a new visual designer) that doesn't involve the core compiler itself.
It would have been interesting to see the poll run its course and no comments made from anybody.  The poll itself was beneficial for many of us.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 26, 2013, 05:58:15 AM
Is it not curious that an initiative like that never came from PB Inc. itself?
I would never expect it from PB.  I should be clear that my interest in the poll was not PB related.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 26, 2013, 06:17:23 AM
Quote
Is it not curious that an initiative like that never came from PB Inc. itself?

(sic Anonimous)
Ce sont les ultimes soubresauts d'un poisson échoué sur le sable, attendant désespérément que la marée revienne.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 26, 2013, 10:31:16 PM
At this time, i know only one person who still believes that PB can recover. And he's not more a member of this forum.
But i also know that he believes in the "Return of Mr. J in a cloud" which he is also a witness from.
Seeing from this perspective he is a person who likes to have very ambitioned hopes and so i do not wonder about it.
Do i hope PB can recover? YES.
Do i belive it will happen? Possibly Mr. J. will appear sooner.  :D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Gary Beene on October 26, 2013, 11:15:56 PM
Theo,
Add me to this list.
Quote
...  believes that PB can recover ...
If I'm only the 2nd person you know who believes it, then you've not been reading the same threads I have.  I've found lots of folks who, despite the obvious/serious concerns, think PowerBASIC has a reasonable chance of recovery.

It's really hard to know for sure, but posts in this thread seem to written mostly by folks who already had a bone to pick with PowerBASIC. or who already thought that PowerBASIC had not pursued developments that are essential for future growth. So especially now, with the troubles of the last year, one would not expect the posters in this thread to provide optimistic projections on the future of PowerBASIC.

One thing for sure, is that things appear grim at PowerBASIC.  I can't say that I've ever been around a company who needed their user community more, but who seems to communicate with their users less.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on October 27, 2013, 01:27:23 AM
Tom, I can understand your frustration if you have been inconvenienced with the outages and other problems with PowerBASIC as a company but equally you don't have to be a genius to grasp the scale of the problems that they face with the passing of Bob Zale. For anyone who is familiar with their compilers, they already know they are damned good tools and for their target market there is little that compete with it.

If there has ever been a time when PowerBASIC need some friends, it is now when Bob's wife has had to deal with the loss of her husband, all sorts of legal matter in relation to an estate, then there are the technical issues of continuing development of their product range, keeping staff going, paying all of the normal outgoing bills, ensuring the peer forum remains up and going, maintaining support etc etc ....

Much of the strength of PowerBASIC has been its peer group of users who in turn support the PowerBASIC peer forum as well as Josés forum and it is that support that is needed now as the company faces difficulties from the above mentioned problems. The compilers are in no great need for revision at the moment and the current versions are highly extendable and this would do the job right up to the dead end of Win32.

I am much of the view that the friends of PowerBASIC can help the company keep going where repeatedly trying to kick them in the guts while they are down only helps to make life more difficult for them in their efforts to recover. While I personally work mainly in MASM, I will continue to support PowerBASIC as best I can as I like their product and regularly use it, for people who want to try and tear the company down, I am much of the view that they can go blow their nose and get off their behind and learn another product if they can raise the bucks to buy it.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 27, 2013, 02:10:01 AM
Quote
Do i hope PB can recover? YES.
I hope they can recover, too.  I had great hopes that they would, and was very positive about it until Jim had his accident.  Then it was clear that PB Inc. had not learned a lesson from the death of Bob, and the entire company was still solely resting on the shoulders of one man, so much so, that even products that are ordered can't be stuck in an envelope and mailed out, without Jim there. 

It is NOT hard to put CDs in an envelope, address the envelope, put stamps on it and hand it to the mailman when he next delivers mail to the office.  Filling an order is a fundamental part of a business, and the most important part if you intend to stay in business.  To see PB struggling with such a basic thing is not reassuring.  Orders need to be moved out of house, since PB Inc. can no longer handle them.  There are several legitimate online services that will process orders for software, and even handle sending out a CD if a customer orders a CD.  There are also online services that can handle the printed manual and send those out when a customer orders them.  This would free up PB staff from these mundane tasks and let PB Inc. solely concentrate on working on the compilers.  There is no shame in saying you can't do it anymore and need help. 

Even if there are not going to be any further improvements on the compilers, this would allow PB Inc. to still sell the products to those who want them and ensure that customers are getting what they paid for, and in turn they can shut down the office and just collect the payments from the online companies.  The forums could be moved to a professional forum hosting service and community members would continue to provide peer support, just as they do now.  If PB Inc. is ending, it does NOT have to end badly. 

I still hope they can dig themselves out of this hole, and I truly would like to see the products survive and live on and grow.  They just need to quit putting all of their eggs in one basket and quit depending solely on one person to carry the entire load.  When you do this, it only takes one snowbird in Florida to change the course of your company's direction, or even grind it to a halt.  Hopefully they have learned this lesson with what happened with Jim. 


Quote
I can't say that I've ever been around a company who needed their user community more, but who seems to communicate with their users less.
It is bewildering.  Now, more than ever is the time for honesty and transparency if they want to regain the trust that has been lost and the customers that have left.


Quote
The company makes rather the impression that they operate their own sell-out. No new printed manuals, low price starter releases, zero communication, uncertain sporadic service, and a growing rumour mill, that's the present state. Is this really necessary?
They are definitely competing against themselves with the lower price versions.  It would be different if they were crippled products, but they are not, and are full-fledged old versions.  Usually a competitor is the person who tries to undercut you, you don't try to undercut yourself.  As to the manuals, if anybody actually has a PB 10 manual and does not need it and wants to sell it, please drop me a PM.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Marc Giao on October 27, 2013, 02:22:58 AM
Gary, take heart, there are at least three of us on this forum.

Steve, well said.

Marc
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on October 27, 2013, 10:57:57 AM
Tom,

This is the bit I don't understand, what circumstance would drive you to such a destructive approach to PowerBASIC when it should be as obvious as titz on a bull why they have had so many problems with the passing of Bob Zale ? I have been using PowerBASIC for about 16 years and have floated around its peer forum for about the same length of time and you are not one of the names I have seen there, what is the problem you have with the company since Bob has passed away ?

If they were just hard to deal with you could simply go elsewhere and buy another product, there are still many on the market, Microsoft still sell reasonably high end C/C++ compilers, the give away a very good assembler, there are various dialects of basic on the market and last I knew Pascal was still chuffing along somewhere. Then you have a plethora of GPL development environments for both Windows and Linux, what is the problem if you cannot get what you were after with PowerBASIC ?

You don't have to be a genius to know that things are tough in the US at the moment and this certainly would effect a small company in difficulties, why is it that you have such unusual requirements of these people when the problems they are facing are so obvious ?

I have made this point before having floated around PowerBASIC as a customer for a long time, the current compilers are up and going and the general consensus among people who are experienced with using them that they are very good tools in the Win32 context. The compilers are reliable and they come with reasonably good CHM help files as well as a decent peer forum when its up and going, what is the problem ? Bob Zale never entered into what he called "Vapourware" (verbal gas powered bovine excrement[ BS] ), why would anyone expect it to be any different with Bob having passed away ?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 27, 2013, 11:49:16 AM
Hutch, you could save PowerBasic. From all people i got to know over the years, you are the Nr.1 ASM-Guru.
You would be the first choice to use Bobs code and transfer it into a 64 bit world.

I do not belive that Mr.X who just needs a Job can save PowerBasic.
Its likely that Mr. X who knows a bit ASM and urgently needs a Job will fail and ruin Bobs code.

Therefore think about it ... talk to them.

If you stand up and say "I'll do it ..." then from my Point of view PB could be saved.

It needs to be somebody who has real knowledge about ASM, Code Optimization ... like you.
Talk to them, and drop us a note "I am ON PB x64 ".
If this happens, at least I would believe PB has a future.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on October 27, 2013, 12:52:55 PM
Theo,

I am flattered but long ago I learnt enough about compiler design to make sure that I never tried to write one. It is an all consuming task that takes years to complete to the exclusion of most other things and I don't have the life and time to do that, even if it was on offer and you can be sure it is not.

Tom,

I am surprised that you know so much about me in terms of my age and disposition but to reply to your idea, you have to be old and stubborn to get much assembler code written. Bob Zale had been writing compilers in assembler since the 1980s and while he probably qualified for your label of old and stubborn, he produced a massive amount of reliable code over the years that were successful compilers.

Now what I have not heard from you is why you are so hostile to PowerBASIC when the problems are so well known, if it was a performance issue you would be writing code in Microsoft VC or similar and as that does not appear to be the case, there must be some other reason.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 27, 2013, 12:53:41 PM
Theo--

Quote
Hutch, you could save PowerBasic.
???  ::)  :-[  :-\

C'est de l'acharnement thérapeutique...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on October 27, 2013, 02:19:41 PM
Patrice,

You are improving my Google translation skills at the moment.  ;D

Tom,

> This company is for good reasons in big trouble now!

Tell us something new here, we have all known this since Bob passed away last year. What does not make sense is why you continue this tirade against people when they are in trouble, the solution is simple, use something else.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 27, 2013, 02:27:48 PM
1 hostile post removed. I would like you to be a bit less emotional Tom. Or else you know the whole post will be deleted.

@Hutch, one of the problem of this world is that intelligent people think too much and see the difficulties while thumb people just go for it.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 27, 2013, 02:30:26 PM
Steve,

Quote
You are improving my Google translation skills at the moment.
This is to change you from your new OZ slang :)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Gary Beene on October 27, 2013, 05:10:23 PM
Tom,
I actually had the same thought ...
Quote
... book a flight to Florida.
Although, perhaps a bit different plans when I got there!  Wouldn't that be a hoot, to have a flash mob appear at the doors to PowerBASIC INC!  :)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 27, 2013, 05:17:27 PM
Steve--

Here is another one to improve your french  :)

Aux dernières nouvelles, il semble que le poisson échoué sur la plage a été passé à la poêle à frire.

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on October 27, 2013, 11:17:30 PM
 ;D

Patrice,

There is truly wisdom in the last comment, the previous one was profound enough.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Guy Dombrowski on October 28, 2013, 01:28:12 PM
Steve--

Here is another one to improve your french  :)

Aux dernières nouvelles, il semble que le poisson échoué sur la plage a été passé à la poêle à frire.

Et il sera servi sur un lit de Rizotto
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 28, 2013, 01:41:10 PM
Bonne dégustation, mais attention aux arêtes !  :)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jim Dunn on October 28, 2013, 02:20:57 PM
Regarding the "Future of powerbasic"... Chris Boss is no longer confident:

http://cwsof.com/forums/index.php?topic=870.0;topicseen
http://cwsof.com/forums/index.php?topic=871.0;topicseen
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 28, 2013, 03:28:50 PM
Quote
Chris Boss is no longer confident

Sometimes it is better to cut one arm, than loosing the life.
Hard decision to take anyway, but the sooner the better, and that should be a source of meditation for all of us.

 :(
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Gary Beene on October 28, 2013, 08:04:41 PM
Well, however valid Chris(B)'s concerns are regarding the viability of PowerBASIC's future , I think his recent announcement is more suitably ascribed to an emotional response to the criticism he got from a few recent posts on the PowerBASIC forums.

If he wanted to bow out of a PowerBASIC presence, he could have done that in the background and not alarmed his current customers.  A public announcement was hardly necessary.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Mayerhoffer on October 28, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
It really boils down that PB is not doing a thing publicly to reinforce the annoying message things are back to "normal as they can be"

I would expect some babble - Hi name is Joe Blow the new Manager - I will be looking forward in doing business with you ....

Hi this is Joe blow happy to get your emails - if you need some thing don't post here-  email me for quicker results

Enough of that. 

My question - the person(s) who have claimed to not received CDs have they been for filled and how long is was has it been and or took ?

Look a cripple like me can get a letter out the door, I see no reason for the crew there not to get a cd out, or am I missing something here.

Look they were a little rough on Chris - some people don't have thick skin. You can call me anything you want - I just laugh at it , if it is funny or stupid enough.

And I tend to forget and forgive unless it is a daily ritual of pure hate and abuse toward me or anyone.
 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Stefanik on October 28, 2013, 10:08:23 PM
Gary, I think the issue with Chris Boss was just that some folks kind of reached their limit when it came to his tendencies towards prolific self-promotion. It was tolerated when it was confined to the 3rd party forums, but they saw his poll as nothing more than a thinly disguised marketing effort. I think the overall reaction to him was in that broader context, rather than the specifics of that particular poll.

Personally, I do have some sympathy for the difficult position he finds himself in. He built a business around PowerBasic and their slow-motion implosion can't be doing any favors for his bottom line. If he depends on the income from his products, everything that's going on must be very stressful for him.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 29, 2013, 07:00:56 AM
Just reading between the lines ...
 
CB's Forum (http://cwsof.com/forums/index.php?topic=870.0;topicseen)
Quote
In all fairness to my customers, I guess I have to seriously consider the strong possibility that Powerbasic will not survive the turmoil it faces. I am not confident at this point.

Quote
I do know a few things, which are not common knowledge, but they are private, but that also does make me worry though, so I have to consider my customers needs first and plan for the worse case scenario. So let's consider what happens if PowerBasic goes under.

Now that Chris "seriously consider the strong possibility", i have to say "Hmmm...".

Let me add that i personally like Chris and have never had a problem with him or with his software, or his participation in this forum.
If he would like to open an EZGUI Subthread in my Sub-Forum Part, I'd let him also do that.
Chris is not a trouble-maker rather he avoids problems.

Looks like there are some "private Informations" out there.
I do not say that i had none of these, possibly got them first (ok second after NSA) ....
but it doesn't help if you have and you can't tell. Possibly its even worse.
You know and you still have to live just like if you don't know nothing  :D.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on October 29, 2013, 03:48:18 PM
We were led to believe that there was a continuity plan, but apparently there's only improvisation.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Marc Giao on October 29, 2013, 04:38:34 PM
Correct and I find that more troubling than anything else. Since Chris appears to have more information than most of us his first remark quote by Theo above is even more troubling.  The PowerSILENCE is deafening...

We were led to believe that there was a continuity plan...

...I have to seriously consider the strong possibility   that Powerbasic will not survive the turmoil it faces.

Marc
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 29, 2013, 05:35:38 PM
One member of this forum was a formal PowerBASIC employee, knowing probably much more than anybody else about the current state of the company.
If ever there was future, he would probably have posted here, because he is reading this thread.

 8)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Israel Vega on October 30, 2013, 09:44:41 PM
PowerBasic may be sold? ... I find it interesting the comment from Chris:

http://cwsof.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=34bd660767964b844fd91a58a2ae37b7&topic=870.msg3807;topicseen#msg3807 (http://cwsof.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=34bd660767964b844fd91a58a2ae37b7&topic=870.msg3807;topicseen#msg3807)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Marc Giao on October 30, 2013, 10:21:51 PM
I am not sure what he's thinking but I don't see those as viable options... I can find no good reason why they'd be interested ::).

PowerBasic may be sold? ... I find it interesting the comment from Chris:

Marc
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 31, 2013, 01:19:47 AM
Contrary to Steve's claims, nobody is complaining about the events after Bob died.  Everybody was VERY understanding and patient after Bob died.  People are complaining about the exact same events happening again after Jim's car accident.  For the same events to be happening twice in one year, shows that PB Inc. did NOT learn any lessons after Bob died.


Quote
They are definitely competing against themselves with the lower price versions.  It would be different if they were crippled products, but they are not, and are full-fledged old versions.  Usually a competitor is the person who tries to undercut you, you don't try to undercut yourself.
I had a nasty email asking me to defend this comment.  In one of the posts Chris deleted, he claimed it was his idea to sell PB 8 for $29.  This was an idea that was NOT well-thought out and is VERY damaging to the company because it undermines their entire pricing structure.  Lets look at the site:

https://www.powerbasic.com/shop/

PB 10 is $199.00

PB 9 is $99.00 and you can upgrade to PB 10 for $99.00 which makes PB 10 cost $1.00 less by upgrading than buying PB 10 straight out.

PB 8 costs $29.00 and you can upgrade to PB 10 for $129.00 which makes PB 10 cost $158.00 by upgrading.

So this idea to sell PB 8 so cheap only caused PB to compete against itself, as now you can buy PB 10 for $41 cheaper instead of paying full price for it.  Yes, you are selling PB 8 for $29.00, but by doing so, you are now also selling PB 10 for $158.00.  This is why I said PB is undercutting itself.


PowerBasic may be sold? ... I find it interesting the comment from Chris:
The best thing Chris can do to help PowerBASIC is quit trying to be a know-it-all and a big shot and shut up and let PowerBASIC handle things on their own.  He does not work for PowerBASIC.  All Chris is doing is making things worse for PowerBASIC and its users.

Like, Theo, I like Chris and I like his products, but he has been a bit too big for his britches lately on the other forum.  He needs to back off and let PB handle things on their own and not be a buttinski as he will only make things worse.


Quote
I am not sure what he's thinking but I don't see those as viable options... I can find no good reason why they'd be interested.
The products themselves would not be useful to either company.  Neither company targets people using BASIC languages.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Mayerhoffer on October 31, 2013, 07:41:41 AM
ME thinks -either a certain server is playing trick or treat or Sunday arrived early in FLA.

This whole thing is beyond painful to watch.



Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Albert Richheimer on October 31, 2013, 08:23:48 AM
Hello to all

I believe this is my first posting in this fine forum.  Hope José won't mind that I am starting right away with a problem. To my impression this issue is indeed related to the future of PB.

I have noticed that the PB Forum has been down for several times. And, worst of all, now I am locked out of the PB forum.  the forum software states that I am not allowed to reply to a posting nor it allows the Quote-function. Also there is a php error message on the bottom of the page.
(http://consulting.richheimer.org/images/Forum_Error.png)

I tried to contact support@powerbasic.com, but - not really surprising to me - there is no reply up to now.

For me it is kind of frightening that the vast amount of brain power of the PB forum community may be lost at some point. I even don't have access the the source code, as for copying the Quote button is needed.

What are your thoughts about this. And, BTW, have got a hint to whom I need to get in contact in order to resolve the PB login issue?

Best regards
Albert Richheimer
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Mayerhoffer on October 31, 2013, 09:17:44 AM

Albert

Rodney H.  on PB forums  -  said he has had the same issue using Firefox and java asked me to redirect you,  it may or may not be a fix for you it did fix the same problem for him.

Server is up now !


http://www.powerbasic.com/support/pbforums/showthread.php?t=53651

Hello to all

I believe this is my first posting in this fine forum.  Hope José won't mind that I am starting right away with a problem. To my impression this issue is indeed related to the future of PB.

I have noticed that the PB Forum has been down for several times. And, worst of all, now I am locked out of the PB forum.  the forum software states that I am not allowed to reply to a posting nor it allows the Quote-function. Also there is a php error message on the bottom of the page.
(http://consulting.richheimer.org/images/Forum_Error.png)

I tried to contact support@powerbasic.com, but - not really surprising to me - there is no reply up to now.

For me it is kind of frightening that the vast amount of brain power of the PB forum community may be lost at some point. I even don't have access the the source code, as for copying the Quote button is needed.

What are your thoughts about this. And, BTW, have got a hint to whom I need to get in contact in order to resolve the PB login issue?

Best regards
Albert Richheimer
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Albert Richheimer on October 31, 2013, 09:39:48 AM
Rodney H.  on PB forums  -  said he has had the same issue using Firefox and java asked me to redirect you,  it may or may not be a fix for you it did fix the same problem for him.
Thanks Mike for your reply. Now I have restarted Firefox in "w/o Add-ons mode", as Rodney Hicks suggested, but I am still locked out from PB.

Cheers
Albert
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jim Dunn on October 31, 2013, 05:53:43 PM
some of us have been locked out of the PowerBASIC site for 2 months now...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Albert Richheimer on October 31, 2013, 06:17:16 PM
some of us have been locked out of the PowerBASIC site for 2 months now...
I believe I know by now what has happened. As I didn't get any notifications on subscripted topis, I have changed my mail address in the personal settings to another (valid) address.  Usually there is a confirmation mail withe a clickable link in order ti re-activate the account. But I never got such an email. I suspect that the forum's SMTP is broken.

Cheers,
Albert
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on October 31, 2013, 06:35:38 PM
some of us have been locked out of the PowerBASIC site for 2 months now...
Quit whining.  I have been banned for a couple of years now.  LOL
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jim Dunn on October 31, 2013, 07:47:48 PM
ah... you might be right... I updated my email address too, 2 months ago... right before I was locked out...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on October 31, 2013, 08:25:22 PM
PowerBasic may be sold? ... I find it interesting the comment from Chris:

http://cwsof.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=34bd660767964b844fd91a58a2ae37b7&topic=870.msg3807;topicseen#msg3807 (http://cwsof.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=34bd660767964b844fd91a58a2ae37b7&topic=870.msg3807;topicseen#msg3807)


If so they will just be interested in the custoimer base, to send us spam for their current products.
I doubt they will employ somebody to continue the product line.

@Patrice: As you know ... hehehe
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on November 02, 2013, 04:07:12 PM
Anybody an ew house in FL., ?
Hous for Sale in FL. (http://michaelsaunders.catylist.com/listing/bUqavPa4FEM/2061-Englewood-Rd-Englewood-FL-34223)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Marc Giao on November 02, 2013, 04:53:41 PM
Anybody an ew house in FL., ?
Hous for Sale in FL. (http://michaelsaunders.catylist.com/listing/bUqavPa4FEM/2061-Englewood-Rd-Englewood-FL-34223)

Just to be evenhanded:
Sale Details... Not PowerBASIC related (http://www.sc-pa.com/testsearch/Parcel/Details?Strap=0485031001&Owner1=KMIEC%20CO-TTEE%20MARJAN%20R&Owner2=KMIEC%20CO-TTEE%20DONNA&Situs=2061%20ENGLEWOOD%20RD%201-5%2C%20ENGLEWOOD%2C%20FL%2C%2034223&Subdivision=8005%20-%20CENTURY%20PLAZA&PropertyUse=1804%20-%20Office%20condo%20unit&Status=OPEN&LastUpdated=01%2F01%2F0001%2000%3A00%3A00&LastSaleDate=11%2F16%2F2007%2000%3A00%3A00&LastSaleAmount=100&Dscr=%0DUNITS%201%2C%202%2C%203%2C%204%20%26%205%2C%20CENTURY%20PLAZA&Waterfront=N%2FA&Census=121150027182&LandArea=0&Zone=OPI%20%20-%20OFFICE%2CPROFESSIONAL%20INSTITUTIONAL&SecTwpRge=14-40S-19E&Municipality=Sarasota%20County&LastQualCode=11&LastTransCode=ID)

Marc
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Marc Giao on November 03, 2013, 12:23:07 AM
I may be mistaken but Chris' forum appears to have been vacuumed... Many of his recent PowerBASIC threads seem to have disappeared. Can anyone confirm I am not imagining this?

Marc
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Gary Beene on November 03, 2013, 05:42:59 AM
I only see the 2 threads that Chris(B) deleted in the Cafe PowerBASIC forum.  Where are you thinking others were, that he deleted?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on November 03, 2013, 06:03:25 AM
In his own forum.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on November 03, 2013, 09:28:44 AM
Marc--
Quote
I may be mistaken but Chris' forum appears to have been vacuumed
Yes i can confirm this.

It is like when a big storm has devasted your home, and you don't know if you must repare it, or clear everything and build a new one from scratch.

One year after the death of Bob Zale, those who took the right decision are seeing the end of the tunnel, while others are now at the bottom of the pit.

We could send a rope to those wanting to escape, but we can't force others to take it.

 :(
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Edwin Knoppert on November 03, 2013, 08:13:49 PM
Odd, the 'special' german forum (kirschbaum-software) is ended in the beginning of 2013.
Wonder about the exact reasons..
http://www.powerbasic.de/html/forum.html
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Gary Beene on November 03, 2013, 08:23:23 PM
Edwin!
Thanks for the link

But OMG!  It looks like I've got a title  -  "von Gary Beene"! 

Is that good?

Mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut!
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on November 03, 2013, 08:33:56 PM
Sorry, but no. It should be Gary von Beene to be a title :)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Christian Damhus on November 03, 2013, 09:40:03 PM
Odd, the 'special' german forum (kirschbaum-software) is ended in the beginning of 2013.
Wonder about the exact reasons..
http://www.powerbasic.de/html/forum.html

I guess I can tell you the reason for this. A few weeks ago I asked Mr. Kirschbaum why the forum is down. He told me that he has experienced technical problems with the forums software and that there were some problems with data security. He also mentioned that he has doubts concerning the future of PowerBasic. But still, so Mr. Kirschbaum, the current compilers are good enough so that they can be used for the near future.

I hope my English is good enough.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on November 04, 2013, 12:03:07 PM
I may be mistaken but Chris' forum appears to have been vacuumed... Many of his recent PowerBASIC threads seem to have disappeared. Can anyone confirm I am not imagining this?

Marc
I do like the post he replaced them with.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jon Eskdale on November 07, 2013, 11:47:23 PM
We seem to have lost the PowerBASIC site again

Jon
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Arthur Gomide on November 08, 2013, 12:50:42 AM
I think that has much vulture flying looking carrion
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: David Roberts on November 08, 2013, 05:36:38 AM
PB will be up again in about nine hours or so when they roll into work.

It could have been worse, it could have gone down on Saturday afternoon in which case we would have to wait until Monday morning.

 :)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on November 08, 2013, 06:17:13 AM
According to Eric's post it was the anniversary of Bob's death, so perhaps the servers took the day off in remembrance.



Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Cliff Nichols on November 08, 2013, 03:41:24 PM
Its 9:40am now and the PB forum is still DOWN!!!  :-X
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Marc Giao on November 08, 2013, 04:42:50 PM
Working again...

Marc
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Keith D. Shelton on November 09, 2013, 10:24:47 PM
Tom Hanlin is back at PB.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on November 09, 2013, 10:34:40 PM
I think you will start to see things moving again reasonably soon, I have known Tom Hanlin for years and he has the know how to get things up and going again. Vivian Zale has made a very good business choice here with a programmer of Tom's experience and with his background in supporting basic programming going back into the 1980s, his knowledge of support will be invaluable.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on November 09, 2013, 11:03:53 PM
I think you will start to see things moving again reasonably soon, I have known Tom Hanlin for years and he has the know how to get things up and going again.

Many of us have known him for years and have direct experience about what happens when Tom takes over a programming language.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on November 09, 2013, 11:06:20 PM
Qui vivra verra...
 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: David Roberts on November 10, 2013, 08:44:10 AM
I kept my trap shut at the PB forums but I know exactly what you mean, Brice. As Patrice says, 'Wait and see'. I sincerely hope that I am wrong but it could be the last nail in the coffin.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on November 10, 2013, 01:56:14 PM
I sincerely hope that I am wrong but it could be the last nail in the coffin.
This was the topic of a couple of phone conversations yesterday.  There are many who share your concern.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Gary Beene on November 10, 2013, 05:35:10 PM
I've never met Tom myself. I only know him through reputation, which from my reading has usually been quite good.

I almost hate to ask, but was there an event in the past (before my time, apparently) that leads to the "nail in the coffin" comment?  I'm not trolling for a diatribe here, so if you have a response, please keep it short.  I only ask because if there was a perceived shortcoming, it might lead to a useful suggestion for Tom to consider.

For that matter, is there a very succinct list of suggestions that we could offer up to Tom - helpful suggestions that is. "Fold up the tent" is not what I'm looking for ...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jim Dunn on November 10, 2013, 05:43:12 PM
... I almost hate to ask, but was there an event in the past (before my time, apparently) that leads to the "nail in the coffin" comment? ...

Just ask one of the "old timers" about "IBASIC"...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on November 10, 2013, 05:46:42 PM
Please, this is no place for gossip. If you want to talk about somebody, do it privately. Thanks.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Gary Beene on November 10, 2013, 06:26:46 PM
Jose,
Whoops, sorry. I wasn't around here until about about 2010 - didn't realize the sensitivity of the topic. 

But, folks, don't lose track of my question:
Quote
For that matter, is there a very succinct list of suggestions that we could offer up to Tom - helpful suggestions that is. "Fold up the tent" is not what I'm looking for ...
If there are any useful/helpful suggestions we can make to PowerBASIC, perhaps we can be part of the solution to helping PowerBASIC be/stay viable!.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Tom Hanlin on December 11, 2013, 04:58:27 AM
I can talk about IBASIC, which frankly turned out to be a criminal enterprise. It was founded on other people's software that could not legally be sold, on "open source" software where they sold the sources that were required to be free, and an owner who did not live up to his own contracts. I did not do nearly enough due diligence. It looked like what I wanted. It was far from that. There was no way anyone could have continued that company. The code was garbage and the company was totally illegal.

I lost a great deal of money on that transaction. Eh, we live and learn, and sometimes it smarts a lot.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on December 11, 2013, 10:28:14 AM
Tom,

The lack of communications, either for IBASIC, or PowerBASIC (the purpose of this tread), has forced many of us to move to new horizon(s).

I couldn't see anybody, even you, able to take over Bob Zale's work.

Things have been neglected for too long.

...

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jon Eskdale on December 11, 2013, 10:43:33 AM
I agree the lack of communications has been the worst part with PowerBASIC and I was never involved with IBASIC so can't comment.  But although some have moved - many including myself have not and would love to support PowerBASIC in the future.  It's a wonderful product as it is now, and would love to see it go forward even further.  It has been neglected for a while and it won't be easy to take over Bob's work but I'm sure it is most definitely worth saving and developing further.

Jon
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Edwin Knoppert on December 11, 2013, 04:12:30 PM
...The code was garbage and the company was totally illegal.

I lost a great deal of money on that transaction. Eh, we live and learn, and sometimes it smarts a lot.

I have no intention to interfere with the 'who saves PB' discussion but this statement wonders me.
How can one not being capable to check out his goods before purchasing it?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Frederick J. Harris on December 11, 2013, 06:52:36 PM
Quote
How can one not being capable to check out his goods before purchasing it?

I think it can just happen.  Couple years ago I bought a truck.  I did what I thought was reasonable online research on the truck before I bought it.  After I bought it I ran into a problem which I simply failed to discover in my research.  It was there - I simply failed to recognize it.  S*** happens. 

A number of us wondered what happened with IBasic.  Tom's statement above is the first mention of it I've seen.  I'm sorry it didn't work out for him.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Tom Hanlin on December 13, 2013, 02:38:53 AM
Tsch, yeah. I am probably not going to repeat Bob Zale. I don't think anyone has the incentives available. But we have a very interested group, and I might imagine a small collection of talented people filling in. Consider being one of them.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on December 13, 2013, 09:03:50 AM
Tom--

What about facts, and a clear road map, instead of just vapor words again and again?

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Marc Giao on December 13, 2013, 03:36:26 PM
Please do elaborate on the following:

I don't think anyone has the incentives available.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on December 13, 2013, 09:14:27 PM
Besides all the good, Bob never used the chances that incorporating user contributions would have given to PowerBasic. That was possibly one of his biggest mistakes.
If Tom is going to make a significant change about this, it could be a way to go.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Tom Hanlin on December 14, 2013, 07:14:31 AM
 I can't tell you the future. I don't know what it will be. I am trying to make it smooth and clear but, it's liable to be a month before there is an announcement.

My preference? I see three products about ready to go. I would like, actually, to release all of the source code, at a reasonable price. But I am not in charge of marketing and this may be a silly dream. It's a notion. Might happen. I have unreasonable clout, at the moment, which may not persist.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Tom Hanlin on December 14, 2013, 07:27:23 AM
Besides all the good, Bob never used the chances that incorporating user contributions would have given to PowerBasic. That was possibly one of his biggest mistakes.
If Tom is going to make a significant change about this, it could be a way to go.

I'd go so far as to state that this is completely mistaken. Bob wasn't always good at outreach. I was. I started out as a PowerBASIC tools vendor, and it was just an offhand thing, my real market was Microsoft BASICs. Bob screwed me around more than once in his redesigns of the internal code, and actually stole my ideas to improve his own product. He incorporated them directly into the compiler. I don't bear him much resentment for it but I don't forget it, either.

But, as an outside tools vendor, I always knew what other vendors would want, and I built them directly into the IDE. You have a tool? The IDE will load your help system for you. It will do its very best to make your tool feel comfortable and at home. It's designed to accommodate.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on December 14, 2013, 09:07:29 AM
Tom, then who is in Power?
Are you going to save PB?
Can you if you are not "in Power"?
I can say that i like your progressive attitude. But a detailed plan will also be needed.
As said, i believe that there are people willing to help, if there are clear plans, that are honest and believable.
Such can only be done by somebody who has a authority on the PB leftover code  etc.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on December 14, 2013, 11:44:48 AM
Theo

{Il n'est pire sourd que celui qui ne veut pas entendre.}
(There are none so deaf as those who will not hear.)

Why don't you consider the facts. You should stop dreaming and rely on yourself to handle your programming destiny.

Time is going fast, and those waiting for the tide to come back are dying slowly on the shore, do you think it is another result of the climate change, do you?

There are plainty of other programming tools around, some are more BASIC oriented, but all in one the choice for SDK programmers should be obvious, and the transition not that hard, especially because, on this forum, you could get the help from those who already jumped in.

...

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on December 14, 2013, 01:34:16 PM
Patrice, i am not waiting for the tide, but if she comes it will be ok.
If it doesn't happen it will also be Ok.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on December 14, 2013, 05:05:12 PM
Theo:  I agree with Patrice.  The only difference is I would not recommend VC++ to people.  The reality is, the majority of posts on the official forums are no longer PowerBASIC related.  The majority of posts here are no longer PowerBASIC related.  Everybody has moved on.  It really doesn't matter what PB Inc. does at this point. 

I like PB and I was writing an IDE in it for a new project of mine.  Unfortunately, my plans have been shot to hell as my laptop was stolen and it was my development machine.  I do not even have access to a Windows machine now.  Right now, I am stuck getting online with an archaic Eee PC 4G Surf (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ZLSXJO/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1).  So, my development and all plans are at a complete standstill until I can afford to get a new system.  What really sucks, is this has destroyed some major plans for my future.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on December 14, 2013, 05:31:12 PM
Backup; BAckup; BACkup; BACKup; BACKUp; BACKUP...

and put a safe copy in a hidden place.

I never leave the house, without at least an USB key in the pocket, i learned this the hard way too.  :-X

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on December 14, 2013, 05:40:33 PM
Everything is backed up fine and nothing is lost in that aspect.  I just can't afford to replace the stolen laptop at this time.


Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on December 15, 2013, 07:18:15 AM
Then why not look in the PB Forum in "Consultants wanted?".
Get a project and tell them you need a computer.
There should be enough work there for somebody with programming Skills.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on December 15, 2013, 08:30:37 AM
Quote
Then why not look in the PB Forum in "Consultants wanted?".
I am not a member of the PB forums, so I can't make a "looking for work" post there.  Given the small handful of users still using the forum, it would fall on blind eyes.  You do seem to be the eternal optimist about PB, but it seems everybody but you and a very small handful of others have moved on.  Most simply can't afford to wait this out.  It is okay to "let go", Theo.  It doesn't mean you hate PB if you move on.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on December 15, 2013, 09:23:30 AM
It's designed to accommodate.
I just wish it was designed to edit code.  Once you hit around 52,000 lines of code, the IDE goes bunnyfutters and it can't handle anymore and you can actually lose some code due to the IDE not being able to handle anything remotely large (or save it or open it).  Another major shortcoming is the syntax coloring is made useless because you can't set the entire background to be a specific color and get rid of the white that is so hard on the eyes.  You can only set the background color for specific things.

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Jon Eskdale on December 15, 2013, 12:33:17 PM
I Don't understand why you would have 52000 lines of code in the same file without using include files - or is it a problem including the include files.  Although I don't really see why anyone would use the standard IDE when there are better options such as the Free and excellent CSED by Jose and the FireFly and Phoenix 3 environments.

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on December 15, 2013, 01:58:13 PM
Quote
I Don't understand why you would have 52000 lines of code in the same file without using include files - or is it a problem including the include files
Normally you wouldn't, but when you are using an IDE without proper project management, you waste a lot of time opening and closing individual files when they are needed as you are fighting the IDE trying to use it in a way it was not designed to be used.  Of course with code folding a single source file is much more manageable.  This is the 21st century.  The severe limit on lines of code is definitely a holdover from the 20th century that is simply not acceptable for an IDE for any language.

Quote
Although I don't really see why anyone would use the standard IDE when there are better options such as the Free and excellent CSED by Jose and the FireFly and Phoenix 3 environments.
That everyone uses something else really speaks to how problematic the official IDE is.  A company should not aim to drive people to other products through doing things half-assed.  Keep in mind that PowerBASIC is used in the corporate environment.  In some settings the user simply would not have the ability to install a third-party IDE.  PowerBASIC has always been marketed as a professional product, and it is a professional-grade compiler, but the IDE is a very poor representation of the product and does not share the same level of professionalism of the compiler.
 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Gary Beene on December 17, 2013, 04:25:19 AM
Patrice, OMG!  Something we absolutely agree on!
Quote
... least an USB key in the pocket, i learned this the hard way too
I keep a copy of my main developmental folder on my SSD, on 2nd mechanical hard drive in my PC, on 2 different flash drives, and on DVDs.  I also have an external hard drive that I use for backup and keep it in a fireproof safe.  When I go on travel or to a client's site, I take a backup flash drive with me. When I'm coding a project, I back up the project pretty much hourly and keep all backups forever in my development folder.  I also keep a backup flash drive at a separate physical location in case my house gets totally destroyed (tornados do this in these parts).

Backup, backup, backup!  Multiple options.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Carlo Pagani on December 19, 2013, 01:43:07 PM
 :o Backup backup backup? SSD/USB - So yesterday. Cloud {Cubby / Skydrive / Dropbox}. I use Cubby and it will copy every edit you save to a new version. Yes, I do keep source replicate on 3 machines too but there are so many products that can make life so much easier than carting media around!
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on December 19, 2013, 02:21:14 PM
Then what if the whole internet collapse  8)

Make me think to the cows accustomed to electric milking machine, they couldn't be milked anymore by hand.  :o

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on December 19, 2013, 10:19:49 PM
We will see if she is right ...

Predictions for 2014 (http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_12_14/Soothsaying-in-snowbound-Cairo-Egyptian-prophet-Joy-Ayad-makes-forecasts-for-2014-9625/)

Quote
he United States is in for a string of natural calamities. What is worse, a nationwide split is on the horizon, which may mark the beginning of the end of the United States as we know it today.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_12_14/Soothsaying-in-snowbound-Cairo-Egyptian-prophet-Joy-Ayad-makes-forecasts-for-2014-9625/

i would not travel to USA in Q2/Q3 in 2014.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Carlo Pagani on December 21, 2013, 06:36:43 PM
Quote
Then what if the whole internet collapse

Patrice, I for one convert from non practising Catholic and become practising Amish! :o
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on December 21, 2013, 08:26:54 PM
Yes, autarcic people would probably be the survivals.  :)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Frederick J. Harris on February 27, 2014, 02:13:45 PM
The topic 'Future of PowerBASIC' has had 18702 views.  Is there any topic on this forum with more???  At least some folks are interested.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on February 27, 2014, 02:25:37 PM
Yes, there is one here with more: BassBox (more than 250 000 views with all the cumulative threads)  :)
Title: The phoenix
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 28, 2014, 11:56:44 AM
Ok, we are now close to the second anniversary of the passing of Bob Zale, and after two years the question is still open.

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Peter Weis on October 28, 2014, 05:58:06 PM
Patrice I think the Project PowerBASIC will slowly fall asleep !! pity :D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on October 29, 2014, 04:27:26 AM
I think Gary has the right idea, especially with some encouragement, stop treating the language as crippleware and start producing some decent API, ASM, whatever else goes fast style of code. Just happens to be that the forum went down, maybe maintainance ?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 29, 2014, 09:50:01 AM
Hutch--

After two years of automatic flying mode, comes the time of the forced landing.

And Gary while a good guy is not the pilot of the plain.

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on October 30, 2014, 05:51:16 PM
Hi Patrice,

It certainly does not look like anything is going to happen in a hurry and that is if it ever happens but it bothers me little in that the 2 compilers work well and few have exploited their potential. I have this sense of humour that BASIC holds your hot little hand, API code will rap you over the knuckles while assembler will bite your hand. At least the "beached whales" syndrome appears to have faded with them and the folks that are left actually want to write some decent code at last without the endless whining about more and more "intrinsics" and further changes to the compilers to make them more like VB6.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Stefanik on October 30, 2014, 07:49:02 PM
I think the biggest problem is the "radio silence" from the PowerBASIC staff and their marketing efforts seem to be non-existent lately. It's always seemed to have been positioned as a BASIC compiler targeted towards the business/professional developer, but they seem to be falling behind the curve there and I'm not sure they have the resources to change things.

I've personally reached out to see if there's something that we could do together with SocketTools and PowerBASIC and there doesn't seem to be any interest at all from them.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on October 31, 2014, 12:18:23 PM
Quote
It's always seemed to have been positioned as a BASIC compiler targeted towards the business/professional developer

Not anymore, because business/professional developer are very pragmatic.
And a compiler should be just a tool, not a religion.  ???

...
 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on November 05, 2014, 11:51:07 AM
Patrice, if we get philosophical,
that opens the question if "a religion should be a religion (in your sense)".
I always say that religions are good and needed to organize a working society.
 ;D

Is anybody here, who believes that we will see a PB 11 or PB x64 soon?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Marc Pons on November 05, 2014, 03:34:56 PM
 ::)

Who cares about PB 11 , what is important for the business is PB for x64 and/or PB for linux

even a free tool like freebasic is going in that direction ...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on November 05, 2014, 05:42:13 PM
Quote
Is anybody here, who believes that we will see a PB 11 or PB x64 soon?
Just consider the facts, objectively, and you will have the answer.

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Frederick J. Harris on November 06, 2014, 12:24:42 AM
What have you been using for your x64 work Theo?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on November 06, 2014, 10:07:53 PM
See here:
http://www.jose.it-berater.org/smfforum/index.php?board=381.0
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on November 07, 2014, 03:46:13 AM
PureBasic uses another proprietary syntax that is not portable from one language to another, kind of super DDT full of Gadgets :)

...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on November 07, 2014, 03:56:56 AM
Cross-platform compilers need to do that, because the Windows API only works in Windows. Applications that call the Windows API directly aren't portable to other platforms.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Mike Stefanik on November 13, 2014, 11:42:40 PM
PureBasic uses another proprietary syntax that is not portable from one language to another, kind of super DDT full of Gadgets :)

...

Not to mention that it's not a particularly BASIC-like implementation of the language. Of course, the same thing could be said about Visual Basic as well.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Tom Perkins on November 14, 2014, 06:24:45 PM
Of course, the same thing could be said about Visual Basic as well.
But PureBasic is still universally used and still close to the original standard instruction set. Look what has all changed in the meantime, the hardware, the operating systems, the computing power, the Internet and the entire software environment. Requirements and target groups are constantly changing, old structures break up and regroup. Under these circumstances, it is normal if the compiler is developed in line with new challenges. The root is still BASIC!
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Frederick J. Harris on November 15, 2014, 01:45:10 AM
Quote
PureBasic uses another proprietary syntax that is not portable from one language to another, kind of super DDT full of Gadgets

I imagine it can be used like PowerBASIC though, making direct Api calls, while ignoring the 'super DDT full of gadgets'?
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on November 30, 2014, 03:20:38 AM
I think the biggest problem is the "radio silence" from the PowerBASIC staff and their marketing efforts seem to be non-existent lately. It's always seemed to have been positioned as a BASIC compiler targeted towards the business/professional developer, but they seem to be falling behind the curve there and I'm not sure they have the resources to change things.

Most alarming is that people are still having trouble trying to actually order PB.  And even worse than that is the PB staff are happy with that and there is no shortage of users who will defend the actions of PB. 


But PureBasic is still universally used and still close to the original standard instruction set.

It is much closer to traditional BASIC than what PowerB is.


Look what has all changed in the meantime, the hardware, the operating systems, the computing power, the Internet and the entire software environment. Requirements and target groups are constantly changing, old structures break up and regroup. Under these circumstances, it is normal if the compiler is developed in line with new challenges. The root is still BASIC!

Unlike other languages, PureB keeps up with those changes.


I imagine it can be used like PowerBASIC though, making direct Api calls, while ignoring the 'super DDT full of gadgets'?

Correct and many do use it in just this way.  Very highly skilled SDK programmers in the PureB community.  However, it is very detrimental for many folks since the Windows API is not cross-platform.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on December 04, 2014, 12:11:20 PM
PureBasic is more a Macro-Assembler then a "real compiler".
Hard to say that, but you will see the limits if you take a closer look.
PureBasic is not PowerBasic (http://www.jose.it-berater.org/smfforum/index.php?topic=3368.0)

It does not have a real GOSUB/RETURN
At least Purebasic 4.40 does not have the ability to make FOR ... NEXT LOOP with non Integer values.
It does not yet have a full set of datatypes.
What it has is a large set of libraries and a active community.

Instead what they got is XML and JSON (Java stuff) support.
PureBasic 5.30 (http://www.purebasic.com/german/news69.php)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on December 06, 2014, 12:11:33 AM
Quote
... It does not have a real GOSUB/RETURN... Instead what they got is XML and JSON (Java stuff) support...

A language that is not stuck in the early 70s and supports modern technology and methodology?  How insane.  ;D  It is well into the 21st Century, unless you are targeting DOS, PureBasic is the only legitimate BASIC compiler for Windows that is actively developed and actively supported.

And given your incorrect assumptions in that thread of yours (which I have pointed out before and you have deleted), you really should not link to it and think it has any credibility (unless your goal is to intentionally spread misinformation).  To make a claim that "PureBasic is still  a "Single-Pass Compiler" shows your complete ignorance in the understanding of how modern compilers work.  PureBasic uses FASM which is an industry standard assembler.  FASM is a multi-pass assembler which is the stage where multiple passes are needed, they are NOT needed pre-assembly stage. 


Quote
What it has is a large set of libraries and a active community.

PowerBASIC has neither, unless you count the crickets as community members. 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Bob Houle on December 06, 2014, 02:38:33 PM
Theo,
I have read most of your posts and Brice is correct.
You say you want a 64-bit compiler, you get it... then you say everything negative that you can!   ???

 - PureBasic is more a Macro-Assembler then a "real compiler".
PureBasic is a "real compiler" and produces EXE's as small as any compiler.

 - Hard to say that, but you will see the limits if you take a closer look.
A blanket statement that does nothing to help the reader who might be interested in testing out PureBasic.

 - It does not have a real GOSUB/RETURN
It has, and it has been part of PureBasic since the beginning. You just have to follow it's rules and not PowerBASIC's

 - At least Purebasic 4.40 does not have the ability to make FOR ... NEXT LOOP with non Integer values.
If you don't like a function the way it exists... create a macro or function that does. Simple.
Besides, when was the last time you ABSOLUTELY needed that requirement. Not often, I'll bet.

 - It does not yet have a full set of datatypes.
Another blanket statement. I have never had a problem with PureBasic datatypes. Would I prefer more, like PowerBASIC. Of course, but
you make it sound as if the product is unusable. Horsecrap!

 - Instead what they got is XML and JSON (Java stuff) support.
This isn't just "Java stuff". These libraries help you to build programs faster than you could any other way, and have nothing to do with Java.
It's simply a standard method of doing things.

-      JSON - This library understands and produces the JSON format as defined by RFC-7159.

-      XML - The XML library provides set of functions to easily add XML parsing and adding capability to applications. It is based on the expat XML parser, which is licensed under the MIT license. Expat is used in many projects (like Mozilla or Perl). It is very stable and very fast.

Rather than use "Blanket statements that mean nothing", I'm going to include a zip file which shows how to use these new additions to PureBasic.

The JSON sample produces a small database that tracks Players. Notice it has nothing to do with "Java stuff"

The XML sample produces a small dialog from just XML code. Notice it has nothing to do with "Java stuff"

A PowerBASIC / PureBasic user just posted a PowerBASIC to PureBasic Reference Guide.

see:  http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=61153 (http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=61153)

Now that's much more positive... isn't it?  ;D

--Bob ("blueb"  on the PureBasic forum)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Brice Manuel on December 07, 2014, 03:28:47 AM
Theo,
I have read most of your posts and Brice is correct.
You say you want a 64-bit compiler, you get it... then you say everything negative that you can!   ???

I am a few days away from my 11th year anniversary of using PureBasic.  During that time it has continued to grow in functionality and the number of platforms supported (some old platforms like the Amiga and the PowerPC Macs have been dropped) and it has continued to adhere to traditional BASIC as much as possible.  All this has been done with one price and not being subjected to a shakedown for more money every year or two for things that should have been included to begin with.  A language that continually grows and is actively supported will always attract new users eliminating the need for trying to make all of your money off of existing customers instead of seeking new ones.  The introduction of the LTS version has been VERY welcomed as it allows you to use the stable version for any serious work, but still play with the "bleeding edge" version so you can get used to the new features when the time comes that you will need those features.  The only weak point for me is I dislike the included GUI designer and there is no longer a decent third-party GUI designer being sold.  Most people simply don't use a GUI designer for their GUIs, so I am definitely in the minority with this "dislike".  That said there is nothing wrong with the included GUI designer and those that use it love it.  I am just very picky when it comes to GUI designers. 

For those who do NOT want a BASIC compiler that properly supports modern hardware and technology and would prefer a legacy BASIC that never really progresses, True BASIC (http://truebasic.com/) is still being sold and actively developed and it is the original BASIC (all other BASICs have been imitators).  I would never recommend it for anything but hobby use and I would never recommend it for anything you intend to actually release (even for free).
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Bob Houle on December 07, 2014, 06:48:39 PM
Do you know of any PureBasic demo(s) that would knock my socks off ?

All the demos i have ever seen are looking more like those of DOS days.

If you have any screen shot(s) or link(s) that you could share, i would be very happy to revise my opinion.

Thanks

...

Patrice,

I've been a user of your Winlift program (2003), so I know you don't impress easily. {grin}

Would the ability to use PostgreSQL or SQLite out of the box knock your socks off... it doubt it.

But that's my point... as a 'bare metal' programming tool PureBasic probably outshines PowerBASIC, only because it provides much more OUT-OF-THE-BOX.

But, I've included a few graphical examples (Zipped) to show what's possible...
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: José Roca on December 07, 2014, 10:40:37 PM
Quote
Would the ability to use PostgreSQL or SQLite out of the box knock your socks off... it doubt it.

I already have headers and a class for SQLite, and translating the headers of PostgreSQL would not be a difficult task.

My problem with these cross-platform compilers, such PureBasic and FreeBasic, is that they are not well suited for the kind of programming that I do.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on December 08, 2014, 09:34:13 AM
Why do you get religiouse here, folks?
In fact i did not say anything negative. A Macro Assembler is nothing negative.

Now think a minute. If Fred would make Purebasic a second time - would he do it the same way?
I think not. He started that time, and what you get is a large toolbox.

What was exactly negative?
A Macro Assembler is one of the best programming tools you can get and PureBasic is built on one "as an enhancement" somehow.
And it does not go so far above it if you look into difficult to compile code.
My problem with it was that just any time when i used it, i crashed into some limitations that a "real compiler" like PB doesn't have.

If i use Gosub and i run into an error - due to the stack frame that PB uses, the compiler will clean it up when i leave the procedure.
And of course i can use real GOSUB/RETURN. I use it very often.
All needed types of variables are there. Yes some types were later added in Purebasic, but it did not look to me as if it really fits together like in PowerBasic.

And the String-Engine in Powerbasic saves me most of the problems i have in other languages.
I have tried that in PureBaisc as well, but it never worked for me as expected.
The Strings are just not like the PowerBasic strings.

Having said that about the "Core" of the compiler, (and thats where i would like to see changes),
i add that the many libraries from all sorts of uses are a great tool set for people who want to build applications in some sort of "construction set" style.

And while the system is different from PowerBasic, its still usabel and i have also done some applications in PureBasic where i needed 64 bit.
Its just different. And ... yes i prefer PowerBasic.

Let me add that if i would use Purebasic for so long time like others, possibly i would know workarounds for most problems.
Its like in any sort of programming language. At the end its the programmer - not the tool.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on January 16, 2015, 03:03:44 PM
I confess to being very disappointed in what has happened with the PB forum lately. I see Gary as a good guy who tried very hard to get the SDK/API subforum going and we saw code from Jose, Patrice, a number of the PB forum members and I managed to get a bit of stuff done as well but the endless trolling, arguments, insults and general influence peddling have done the damage and very few are game to post API based code any longer as the talking heads just put the boot into it.

Like Jose, I am not dependent on the PB forum and can post PB example in the MASM forum which is now a better choice as no nonsense is allowed in the MASM forum at all. What has p*ssed me off the most is there have been a lot of very good programmers in the PB forum in the past who faded away with the flooding of DDT code who could have come back and posted decent API based code but with the endless cr*p going down, they just stopped bothering or in fact did not bother at all.

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on January 16, 2015, 04:41:24 PM
Patrice,

I don't have any beef with DDT, I think Bob hit the mark of a simplified system for people who could not put in the effort to learn API style coding but we have a very similar view of the folks who thought that peer pressure would ever effect those who put in the effort years ago to learn how to write Windows code properly. I have not won any friends by labeling this nonsense as membership of the "Mickey Mouse Club" but eventually you get tired of people who keep trying to cripple the language to maintain their own flavour of influence peddling.

32 bit PowerBASIC is in its twilight as Bob never had the chance to finish the 64 bit version but it is still a very good tool in the 32 bit area yet trying to promote its advanced features in the PB forum is like p*ssing into the wind and wondering why you get wet. I feel sorry for Gary as he has tried hard to get it going again but the "Mickey Mouse Club" will continue to sob into their chardonnay until it turns into the "Grapes of Wrath" and will take down the viability of the language until there is no-one left.

I think you said it all a long time ago, behaving like "beached whales".  ;D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on January 19, 2015, 10:37:03 PM
We had several disputes with Bob in the past.
Most of all, however only people that have been very close to Bob and the PB Company know all of the truth.
What we see as outsiders, is that:
1. About 32 bit - PB is still usable and a very good program
2. About 64 bit we need to look around

How is Charles Pege doing?
Some time ago he told me, he could make his compiler to compile (non-DDT) PB-like Code into 64 bit.
Did anybody test his newest creations?

Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on January 20, 2015, 12:24:22 AM
I basically agree with that, while 32 bit bit is in its twilight there is still a lot of life left in it and the current versions of PB are both very useful tools. Now its not that I am biased but in the 32 bit area, MASM is a truly wonderful tool once you get used to its many bad manners. It has never been softened to a friendly consumer toy, pelts unintelligible error messages at you, has a macro engine that has very few peers but at the price of being only ever vaguely intelligible, buggy and under documented. It was clearly designed for the backroom boys and girls at Microsoft where you had to know its quirks but it does force you to write technically correct code.

64 bit is the future but its not coming all that fast and for compilers it has a lot to do with its incredibly messy stack design. Where 32 PE files had STDCALL, C and any flavour of FASTCALL you wanted to use with a 4 byte aligned stack, Win64 has a 16 byte aligned stack where you first have to allocate stack space under the current location then call API functions using 4 specified registers then the stack for any others while maintaining 16 byte stack alignment. Where 32 bit PE format was designed by the old VAX guys and was clean, clear full 32 bit design, Win64 is a mess something like the old 16 bit NE format was for Win3.?? except that its a 32/64 bit hybrid.

We won't see real 64 bit performance until we have full long mode and hardware with terabytes of memory, 32 gig of ram in Win64 is akin to what 4 meg was in win16, Whoopee !  ;D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Charles Pegge on January 20, 2015, 07:25:03 AM

I totally agree, the 64 bit calling conventions are horrid, and break the minimal conformity between Linux systems and Microsoft, which we had with CDECL.

It would be far better, in the long term,  to adopt a 64 bit CDECL as the universal standard for libraries, and leave the kernel developers to do their own thing. I hope this happens with the next generation of hardware (memristors?)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on January 20, 2015, 01:20:49 PM
Its not a simple question to answer Patrice as there are both hardware and software considerations. Almost exclusively anything to do with multi-media will do better with base 64 registers and twice as many registers but it is coming at the price of other stuff getting slower. I have 3 quad core boxes handy, the i7 I have win7 64 on, the 3 gig core2 quad which was my last dev box with XP SP3 and a NAS box with XP which is a 2.5 gig Q6600 quad.

I regularly benchmark algos and while SSE is clearly faster on the i7, some algos are faster on the much slower Q6600. later hardware is giving more silicon to SSE and less to the integer instructions that use the 8 GP registers.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Charles Pegge on January 20, 2015, 01:35:25 PM
I think the 64 bit calling convention was for the benefit of kernel developers, not application developers, and this is where the speed advantage is gained.  Most higher-level functions will not benefit from passing parameters in volatile registers.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on January 21, 2015, 10:57:46 AM
Hi Patrice,

There will certainly be types of code that will show the advantages of 64 bit and most probably the type of advanced work you do will benefit the most from 64 bit but many others will not. I have attached 2 versions of a Microsoft tool called ZOOMIN which is available in the win2000 SDK and while I cannot post the source code due to licencing conditions, I have built both a 32 and 64 bit version using almost identical Microsoft code and about the only difference is the 64 bit version is twice the size for no performance gain.

Win7 64 makes a mess of the selection rectangle display but both versions work. I have attached the two version to compare.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Frederick J. Harris on January 21, 2015, 09:55:36 PM
Are you saying Patrice that your x64/x32 comparisons use wide characters on the x64 versions and narrow on the x32 versions?  If so I'm thinking that could easily account for a 20% speed difference.

I have done some comparisons myself - particularly involving string buffer manipulations, and my wide character runs are invariably slower than my ansi runs due presumably to buffers and memory allocations being twice as big.  So in my limited tests I'm presumming timing differences due not to x64/x86 differences but between ansi verses wide.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on January 21, 2015, 11:21:09 PM
I don't think there is a debate here, some thing will be faster but some slower. The 2 versions of ZOOMIN are both UNICODE, one built with VC 2003 in 32 bit, the other with VC2010 in 64 bit.

Now while it certainly makes sense for the advanced work Patrice is doing, I mainly write tools these days and you pay every price in terms of size and performance in 64 bit when writing tools, especially those that have to work in non SSE data sizes. Most complex algos do not get faster in 64 bit but often get slower. I have written both 64 bit and 128 bit code in Win32 using later SSE instructions and in areas where streaming fits the task they produce some very high speed results but many tasks cannot be done with streaming instructions.

My beef is not with 64 bit, its the implementation of Win64. What I hope as the hardware gets better is to see that same type of shift we saw from the hybrid 16/32 Win95OEM to Win2000 that was close to full 32 bit. Shifting from the hybrid 32/64 bit of current 64 bit Windows to a full long mode 64 bit will see some big performance gains but only if the tools get a lot better and I am not going to hold my breath waiting.  ;D
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Frederick J. Harris on January 22, 2015, 12:21:49 AM
Here are some results from a nice little test I just ran from some work I was doing a couple years ago when the issue came up of PowerBASIC's speed in comparison to C and C++.  The interesting issue at the time was that some MSVC compilations were killing PowerBASIC in the same tests - by about a factor of 10!  When Paul Dixon disassembled the VC code he discovered a very interesting thing.  The compiler was examining the algorithm and determining it wasn't efficient, and it was re-writing it!  In other words - optimization!  The asm code generated by the compiler wasn't anything like the PowerBASIC code, which was just translating the sourse 'as is' into machine instructions.  So to make the comparison useful John Gleason suggested something more complicated than those little ditties all the compiler writers know about and hone their code against, which results in 'tainted' speed results.  Anyway, here's John Gleason's algorithm - slightly modified by me ...

Code: [Select]
// Exercise
// =======================================
// 1) Create a 2MB string of dashes;
// 2) Change every 7th dash to a "P";
// 3) Replace every "P" with a "PU" (hehehe);
// 4) Replace every dash with an "8";
// 5) Put in a CrLf every 90 characters;
// 6) Output last 4K to Message Box.

I'll shortly post one of my many C++ examples that implement this, but here are my results of 10 runs as follows...

Code: [Select]
x86 32 bit code
===================================================
32 bit ansi string buffers, i.e., 2,000,000 chars and 2,000,000 bytes      18.6 ticks
32 bit wide string buffers, i.e., 2,000,000 wchars and 4,000,000 bytes     31.5 ticks

x64 64 bit code
===================================================
64 bit ansi string buffers, i.e., 2,000,000 chars and 2,000,000 bytes      28.1 ticks
64 bit wide string buffers, i.e., 2,000,000 wchars and 4,000,000 bytes     45.2 ticks

Code: [Select]
Narrow  x86
===========

31
15
15
16
16
31
16
15
16
15
===
186  186/10 = 18.6 ticks


Wide    x86
===========

16
32
31
16
47
32
32
31
47
31
===
315  315/10 = 31.5 ticks


narrow  x64
===========

31
15
47
16
16
31
47
31
16
31
===
281  281/10 = 28.1 ticks


wide  x64
=========
47
47
47
46
32
46
47
46
47
47
===
452  452/10 = 45.2 ticks

As can be seen above, ansi is faster than wide character, and 32 bit is faster than 64 bit.  The slowest is unicode under native 64 bit, and the fastest is ansi in 32 bit mode.  I used the MinGW GCC x86/x64 compiler for the x64 compilations, and an older MinGW GCC 32 bit compiler for the 32 bit compiles.  Here is the source.  To compile for unicode just uncomment the defines at top...

Code: [Select]
//#ifndef UNICODE
//#define  UNICODE      //strCls34U.cpp
//#endif
//#ifndef _UNICODE
//#define  _UNICODE
//#endif
#include <Windows.h>  //for MessageBox(), GetTickCount() and GlobalAlloc()
#include <tchar.h>
#include <String.h>   //for strncpy(), strcpy(), strcat(), etc.
#include <cstdio>     //for sprintf()

enum                                              // Exercise
{                                                 // =======================================
 NUMBER         = 2000001,                        // 1) Create a 2MB string of dashes;
 LINE_LENGTH    = 90,                             // 2) Change every 7th dash to a "P";
 NUM_PS         = NUMBER/7+1,                     // 3) Replace every "P" with a "PU" (hehehe);
 PU_EXT_LENGTH  = NUMBER+NUM_PS,                  // 4) Replace every dash with an "8";
 NUM_FULL_LINES = PU_EXT_LENGTH/LINE_LENGTH,      // 5) Put in a CrLf every 90 characters;
 MAX_MEM        = PU_EXT_LENGTH+NUM_FULL_LINES*2  // 6) Output last 4K to Message Box.
};

int __stdcall WinMain(HINSTANCE hInstance, HINSTANCE hPrevIns, LPSTR lpszArg, int nCmdShow)
{
 TCHAR szMsg[64],szTmp[16];             //for message box
 int i=0,iCtr=0,j;                      //iterators/counters
 TCHAR* s1=NULL;                        //pointers to null terminated
 TCHAR* s2=NULL;                        //character array bufers

 DWORD tick=GetTickCount();
 s1=(TCHAR*)GlobalAlloc(GPTR,MAX_MEM*sizeof(TCHAR));  //Allocate two buffers big enough to hold the original NUMBER of chars
 s2=(TCHAR*)GlobalAlloc(GPTR,MAX_MEM*sizeof(TCHAR));  //plus substitution of PUs for Ps and CrLfs after each LINE_LENGTH chunk.

 for(i=0; i<NUMBER; i++)                // 1) Create a 2MB string of dashes
     s1[i]=_T('-');

 for(i=0; i<NUMBER; i++, iCtr++)        // 2) Change every 7th dash to a "P"
 {
     if(iCtr==7)
     {
        s1[i]=_T('P');
        iCtr=0;
     }
 }

 iCtr=0;                                // 3) Substitute 'PUs' for 'Ps'
 for(i=0; i<NUMBER; i++)
 {
     if(_tcsncmp(s1+i,_T("P"),1)==0)
     {
        _tcscpy(s2+iCtr,_T("PU"));
        iCtr+=2;
     }
     else
     {
        s2[iCtr]=s1[i];
        iCtr++;
     }
 }

 for(i=0; i<PU_EXT_LENGTH; i++)         // 4) Replace every '-' with an 8;
 {
     if(s2[i]==_T('-'))
        s2[i]=56;   //56 is '8'
 }

 i=0, j=0, iCtr=0;                      // 5)Put in a CrLf every 90 characters
 while(i<PU_EXT_LENGTH)
 {
    s1[j]=s2[i];
    i++, j++, iCtr++;
    if(iCtr==LINE_LENGTH)
    {
       s1[j]=13, j++;
       s1[j]=10, j++;
       iCtr=0;
    }
 }
 s1[j]=0, s2[0]=0;
 _tcsncpy(s2,&s1[j]-4001,4000);         // 6) Output last (right most) 4 K to
 s2[4000]=0;                            //    MessageBox().
 tick=GetTickCount()-tick;
 _tcscpy(szMsg,_T("Here's Your String John In "));   //Let me clue you in on something.
 _stprintf(szTmp,_T("%u"),(unsigned)tick);           //You'll get real tired of this
 _tcscat(szMsg,szTmp);                               //sprintf(), strcpy(), strcat()
 _tcscat(szMsg,_T(" ticks!"));                       //stuff real fast.  It'll wear you
 MessageBox(0,s2,szMsg,MB_OK);                       //right into the ground!
 GlobalFree(s1), GlobalFree(s2);

 return 0;
}

I might add that a 2,000,000 byte string is kind of tight for using low resolution GetTickCount().  For real fast machines you might want to make the string 10 MB or whatever.


Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Frederick J. Harris on January 22, 2015, 12:30:10 AM
By the way Hutch, I downloaded your MASM package the other day and installed it.  Nice!!!  I do hope I can find the time to get back into asm.  I did a lot of it many years ago but that DOS stuff is ancient history.  I'd really like to try to translate that C code above into masm and see how it runs.  I just need to pry myself away from some other stuff I'm working on that likely could wait!
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Patrice Terrier on January 22, 2015, 10:14:45 AM
Since one of the programming language i am using has been translated to Mandarin, i have no other choice than using UNICODE. And also because it is a mandatory to use with GDIPLUS.

Now that i am able to offer both 32-bit and 64-bit solutions, i do not say anymore NO to my users, and they can select the version that fulfil their requirements.

The lack of a 64-bit version of PowerBASIC, plus the fact that it is frozen in time, is the reason why i added the C++ to my tool box.

Pragmatism is my moto.

...

 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on January 23, 2015, 06:44:18 AM
Currently playing with my VC 64 bit setup, absolutely refuse to use that terrible IDE and all of the claptrap that goes with it. Got all of the vc2010 libraries and the matching SDK libraries, include files for both and have the basic templates up and going. Mainly my C is very rusty, been writing MASM for too long but it comes back pretty quick so its no big deal. Typical Microsoft installation was the usual mess, the binaries worked except for cvtres.exe which was broken so I had to go hunt for it. Found a reference on the net to it being in a deep subdirectory of Windows. I could use Pelle's linker but was trying to get the full Microsoft version up and going.

Have got the base windows up for 8.5k with an icon, menu, manifest "amd64" and version control block. If I remove the MSVCRT support it jumps to about 90k. The real win apart from being able to hammer out some utilities in the future is the ASM output which at last gives me a decent look at what 64 bit ASM looks like from a compiler.

Its a shame Bob passed away before he could finish the 64 bit version, most knew that he was working on it but as usual he kept it close to his chest.  I guess no-one elects the time they pass away and with the disarray that followed it appears that it was not expected. I can live with the current 32 bit versions as they do a lot of things well, most of it was ignored by the "Mickey Mouse Club" but I knew that Bob did not half kill himself getting the extra capacity up and going for it to be ignored.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James C. Fuller on January 23, 2015, 11:12:28 AM
Steve,
  Why not try the new Visual Studio 2013 Community for your c++ experiments?
I do not use the ide and compile using a batch file which I attach for any lurkers.

It will compile 32/64 exe [con gui],dll or obj from xxx.c or xxx.cpp files

VS12.BAT filename.[c|cpp] [-m32|m64] [con|gui|dll|obj] extra files

I also include VS12MFC.BAT for use with the now included support for Microsoft Foundation Class library
See the batch file for it's use.

James
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Frederick J. Harris on January 23, 2015, 07:31:04 PM
Quote
Typical Microsoft installation was the usual mess, the binaries worked except for cvtres.exe which was broken....

It makes me happy to know I'm not the only one uses stuff like that! :)

The last version of MS Visual Studio I bought was 2008.  I spent gads of time trying to figure out where everything was at, that is, the various build binaries, and finally about gave up and just used their vcvars.bat file for doing command line work.  It was the 64 bit issue that confused things, of course. 
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Steve Hutchesson on January 23, 2015, 08:29:06 PM
Fred,

What I have tended to do is lay out a directory structure (bin include lib help) then copy the files from the Microsoft installation into that directory structure so you end up with a self contained system that does not depend on things splattered all over the place. I keep VC2003 as it builds almost all standard C code that I have used over time including the old SDK utilities, any version of JWASM etc .... You need both the VC version and the compatible SDK, combine them and you can build most API and ANSI C based code.

Sad to say I have had my share of broken MS installs, back in the early win 3 days I paid too much for Microsoft C Version 7 and it was badly broken for its target of API Windows code. They did not fix it until VC version 1. They generally make good C compilers/linkers etc ... but their libraries tend to be very uneven and their installations unreliable.

James,

Thanks for the offer but its the absolutely wrong end of what I am after, I would not touch MFC or C++ with a barge pole, I am mainly interested in the ASM dump that CL produces. Starting on another version is more work for no gain. As far as a C++ community, I have rarely every seen much else than infantile nonsense and people juggling their pecking order. If I get the time I will have a look at your batch file as it may contain something I can use.
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Frederick J. Harris on January 23, 2015, 09:09:00 PM
Quote
What I have tended to do is lay out a directory structure (bin include lib help) then copy the files from the Microsoft installation into that directory structure so you end up with a self contained system that does not depend on things splattered all over the place.

That's an interesting idea and I hadn't thought of it.  Might give it a try someday.  What I found out though was that their shortcuts to an x86 command prompt and an x64 command prompt for the respective compiler worked OK, and that's all I really wanted, bottom line.  Doing what you did though would provide a greater sense of satisfaction though! :)
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: Theo Gottwald on March 05, 2015, 07:03:16 AM
Funny, the PB-Site ist still up ....
http://www.powerbasic.com/
Title: Re: Future of powerbasic
Post by: James Klutho on March 05, 2015, 07:27:41 PM
Notice that the foot traffic on the PowerBasic forum is an order of magnitude above PureBasic or FreeBasic.  I can't see Fred spending much time on PureBasic in the future since I figure he has to have a day job.  The PureBasic average traffic is not that much different than this site plus it's sister language (Blitzbasic) is now defunct so the family that shares the quirky syntax is a lot smaller.  PowerBasic is heads and shoulders above the other offerings in my opinion.  Too bad it is frozen in time.